r/c tanks......so why not r/c helicopters?

Post by **aferguson** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 2:45 pm

21c should make radio control versions of their Cobra and Huey helicopters. Retool them to fly and sell them for $200 or so. They'd sell amazingly well i bet, as there is nothing on the market like them.

Food for thought.

Timbo · Post by **Timbo** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:09 pm

Why not? Well for a couple of reasons. First and foremost, R/C helicopters are incredibly difficult to learn to fly. I'm not talking about the low end $49.99 stuff you see on sale in the local toy store. There are virtually no minor crashes and repairs are always expensive. Go take a look at some place like Towerhobbies.com and start pricing parts. Keep in mind that a crash of any kind will likely mean a tail strike where the rotor either severs or otherwise mangles the tail boom. The radio gear required to control a large helicopter alone is going to run you around $180 or more. If they used the same tooling they would be heavy and require a ton of power to get them into the air and keep them there. This essentially eliminates the possibility of using electric motors which would be cheaper. I think the safety issues pretty much speak for themselves. Not exactly something you'd pick up for just any kid.

Post by **aferguson** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:20 pm

both of those helicopters have been converted into flying models by individuals. There are a lot of enthusiasts who love helicopters and are crying out for scale, realistic looking machines to fly but there is virtually nothing to satisfy their desires except a handful of extremely expensive models costing several thousand dollars.

Perhaps a $200 price tag is unrealistic but i'm sure 21c could simplify and lighten their existing molds to produce something that would sell very well to r/c helicopter enthusiasts and be a reasonable price. Since the molds are pretty much paid for at this point from previous toy sales it's a good low cost way to get more use out of them and enter a whole new market place for their products.

pickelhaube · Post by **pickelhaube** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:35 pm

Like Timbo said those helos aint easy to fly. They are about 2 to 3 times harder to fly than regular r/c planes.

Rowsdower · Post by **Rowsdower** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:26 pm

I hang out at a local hobby shop that specializes in RC aircrarft and I've seen firsthand how badly RC choppers get damaged from even minor crashes and how difficult it is to fly them. Pretty much the only people I see with them are retired folks with enough money to sink into them.

tmanthegreat · Post by **tmanthegreat** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:39 pm

I think Aferg is trying to say that these 21c helicopters would be targeted at the people who are already in the hobby of flying the RC helos - not necessairly at "Joe Public" who shops at Wal Mart... It would certainly be a narrow section of the market to capitalize on, but could produce some fun results. The pictures I've seen of the RC-converted XD Supercobras and Hueys looked amazing - much better and far more realistic than the funky RC helo designs that are normally sold.

Heck, if 21c were to go the RC route with their helicopters, then they had better make some of their aircraft RC as well! I'd be in the mood for a flyable Avenger

immeww2 · Post by **immeww2** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:22 pm

If 21C rc's aircraft, then it would be feasible to rc all their armor items as well with, probably, better sales results I think since ground vehicles don't have the inherent crash damage aspects as aircraft do.

Rowsdower · Post by **Rowsdower** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:27 pm

I wouldn't mind spending around $100 or so for a new RC Tiger or Sherman of higher quality than the RC PZ IV.

Morian Miner · Post by **Morian Miner** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:46 pm

I would love to see a true scale 1/18 heli, but lots of factors involved. Obviously the pain in flying them, and the damage from a simple crash. I've been waiting years to buy one, and finally bought an Air Hogs Reflex to try (mainly because it had got good reviews on RC heli sites). It ain't easy to fly that, and its a relatively simple configuration. Not to mention its taken alot of abuse on several of my crashes - I don't see a 1/18 model surviving as well.

Then, I don't see an electric as being powerful enough to get one that big off the ground, so you're looking a gas-powered engine. The price goes way up for those, and its not like anyone would want their figs next to that kind of heat source.

Now, there have been some vacu-form bodies that show up on eBay, that you could start with. So far, their mostly 1/24 scale, but I could see larger ones showing up. But there, you need to be experienced enough to put the guts together.

Post by **aferguson** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:49 am

the plastic these xd items are made out of is very tough and could absorb a great deal of impact. Flying over grass rather than concrete would give an element of cushioning. Smaller parts could be designed to pop off on impact (ie they're not glued on), so they would be less likely to snap. Keeping the helicopter flying close to the ground until you know what you are doing would help prevent major damage on impact. Flying at scale speed would be about 10mph or so. Crashes at speeds like that would cause less damage.

Since both the Cobra and Huey have been rc'd by enthusiasts and sold for around $1000, it seems to me that a mass produced version could be made and sold for a lot less. As Tman said, i wasnt thinking of these for WM but for hobby shops where enthusiasts who know what they are doing and are willing to take the risks would buy them. I bet they'd sell a few thousand worldwide. Many enthusiasts want scale machines but can't afford the multi thousand dollar price tags of the ones that are available (they are that expensive because all the tooling costs have to be recovered in the small number of machines that will sell)....but would be willing to spend a few hundred.

I also wonder if flying could be made easier with the use of a computer chip/gyro combination. Simply push a button and the helicopter will hover on its own and you just move it up, down, forward and back with a joy stick. Many technologies are getting pretty cheap.

Morian Miner · Post by **Morian Miner** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:33 pm

I think you're assuming quite a bit, aferg. The XD plastic is alot heavier that the thin plastic shells on these guys, or even the foam. That means higher RPMs. Remember, a plane only has to generate about 10-30% thrust/weight to get off the ground. A helicopter has to generate 100%. Its not the bodies that absorb the damage, but the rotating mechanisms. Even designed to pop off, you have something at a high angular velocity meeting an immovable object (the ground).

And hovering close to the ground doesn't prevent accidents - that's why those RC helis have the ping-pong training wheels. Its the takeoffs and landings that are unforgiving. Which is also why I don't necessarily think computer control is the key. You have to account for the extra weight of sensors to detect altitude, rotational velocity, pitch, etc. Look at what it takes to get a UAV off the ground, and that's what you'd be trying to do.

Post by **aferguson** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:05 pm

look guys...it's been done. Both the Cobra and Huey have been converted into flying models. So if it can be done as a one off and sold for $1000 why can't it be done on a mass production basis and sold for $300-$500?

I bet they'd sell scads of them too. Maybe not to you gloomy Gus's but to rc helicopter enthusiasts i bet they would.

Morian Miner · Post by **Morian Miner** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:10 pm

Yes, its been done, and that's why they sell for $1000. They were built by pros, and I bet they are flown by pros. But, you won't see a production one for under $500 for alot of the reasons I've said, especially because it ain't gonna be electric, and it ain't gonna be done by 21C. If they can't make durable RC tanks, they sure as heck aren't gonna be able to make an RC heli last more than a few flights.

Now, prove me wrong, and I'd be first in line.

Post by **aferguson** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:14 pm

Morian Miner wrote:

"Now, prove me wrong,..."

Now, how'm i gonna to do that?

Morian Miner · Post by **Morian Miner** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:21 pm

Not you, 21C. Or even BBi. I'd take something as simple as a Blackhawk or Huey with moving props. I've converted a Elite Force psuedo-Hind to do that, and its a blast. And I have been eyeing trying to mod one of my Hueys like that. But that's way way way down on the list.

But, if you up to the challenge Aferg, it could make a nice little weekend project for you.

Post by **aferguson** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:25 pm

please share you knowledge.....how did you do it?

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:30 pm

aferguson wrote:please share you knowledge.....how did you do it?

ditto

Morian Miner · Post by **Morian Miner** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:34 pm

Quick description on the pseudo-Hind:

Its already got a battery compartment and switch for the sound effects. If you take the shell apart, there's a small cavity around the crew area. Pull out the circuit car and locate one of the locations where you can tap off the power. Solder wires to that and run them up to a motor. Doing it quick and dirty, I just modified the frame to capture a mechanical toothbrush motor. On the motor, I left the gear on the motor shaft and drilled a hole in the rotor housing to be a press fit. It holds on pretty good that way, and comes off when you hit something (like your arm). Then, hit the switch, and the blades rotate.

On mine, I think I shorted one of the lines, because the sounds work whether or not the power switch is on. Put, the rotors only turn on when you move the sound switch in the direction of the rotor sounds, and they stay on.

Post by **aferguson** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:06 pm

interesting idea on the motor...i wonder if it would be strong enough to spin a cobra rotor.

So i gather the tail rotor doesn't rotate on your Hind? I've thought about making spinning rotors in the past but couldn't figure out a way to make the tail rotor rotate.

Morian Miner · Post by **Morian Miner** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:50 pm

For the tail rotor, I would try something like an old cassette recorder motor. They're usually low profile, and you could mount in a thicker part of the tail boom, then have some sort of drive band to spin the tail rotor.