21st's "OLD CROW"

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hworth18
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Post by hworth18 » Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:25 pm

I wonder why 21st made such an OBVIOUS goof on the "OLD CROW"?? Especially after all the discussion on here about the BBI goof.....
It really makes you wonder sometimes... :?

BTW, if anyones curious, here are the model builders specs for the Silver OC off the Bud Anderson website..

http://www.cebudanderson.com/p51ddetailpage.htm

B. "Old Crow" lays along upper cowl seam on both sides with the serifs on the port "O" and starboard "W" barely touching the checkerboard.
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Post by Rowsdower » Tue Apr 17, 2007 2:54 pm

hworth18 wrote:I wonder why 21st made such an OBVIOUS goof on the "OLD CROW"?? Especially after all the discussion on here about the BBI goof.....
It really makes you wonder sometimes... :?
Exactly what I wondered! :lol:
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Post by MightyMustang » Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:37 am

After thinking about it its really not that big of a deal really. At least not to me anyway. Old Crow in its NMF scheme is a Mustang I have waited for for a long time and I'm glad to see it done. I'll just get the decal and apply it to the other side of the cowling. At least we dont have to deal with bent props and grey tires. But I agree 21st should have learned from the BBI mistake.


:D
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Post by tko211 » Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:14 am

Roy Sutherland from 21st Century Toys has been reviewing this thread and asked if I would post this on his behalf. -enjoy.

Hi guys,

I’d like to take a few minutes to respond to the “Old Crow” Markings discussion. Please understand that I take the researching of paint schemes very seriously. When the paint master was being created, the painter and I discussed the details of this scheme in detail. We scoured many reference books and discussed the 357th markings (and 8th Air Force markings in general) at length. We wanted to make sure that this replica was as accurate as it could be. In the end we decided that painting the name on one side only was in keeping with general practices at the time. We were well aware of a number of restored Warbirds that carried the name on both sides of the cowling, but basing research on Warbirds is not a good idea. A vast majority of Warbirds contain many errors or liberties taken to make the aircraft more attractive. Many well known P-51s had name art only on one side of the cowling. After a search turned up no photos of the starboard side of the nose of #414450, I made a decision.

The release of Old Crow seems to have reignited interest in the issue. I have been in contact indirectly with Bud Anderson and his son, Merle Olmstead (a respected historian with a vast knowledge of the 357th), and even heard some feedback from Jack Rousch, owner of the Warbird “Old Crow”. Bud himself is sure that the name was carried on both sides of the nose. Now, this would seem to be enough to put the issue to bed, but as any detective or police officer will tell you, memory is not a reliable witness. This is not to say that sometimes it is not very accurate. But many times, details get murky within hours, and after 70 years, it’s hard to tell the accurate recollections from the less accurate. All that aside, Bud Anderson is an impressive man and sharp as a tack. I have seen him speak on a number of occasions and met him twice. He has my deepest respect and gratitude.

As a researcher, though, I try to get to the truth. I have continued to dig for more substantial proof, but there appear to be no photos of Old Crow taken from the starboard side. A new photo has emerged of an aircraft named Pretty Pix. This, I am told, is the same P-51D #414450, after it had been reassigned to another pilot. The photo shows the starboard nose and the name Pretty Pix painted in the place “Old Crow” would be. On close inspection, the photo seems to show some ghost of overpainted lettering in the area. There is disagreement if the lettering is there or if it is just staining or dirt, but it seems to me that it certainly could be the ghost of an O. This is enough for me to conclude, along with Bud’s clear recollection, that Old Crow was carried on both sides of the nose. We will certainly be willing to print a correction decal and send it on to anyone who wants one. I’d like to ask your opinions. Obviously, we cannot recall the model, send it back to the factories and repaint it. Would a correction decal be an acceptable resolution?

I work very hard to make these airplanes as accurate as they can be given the time and budgetary concerns. Much research goes into each scheme, and I stand behind everything we do. We do make mistakes from time to time, but it is not because we are not trying. We will continue to bring you cool new products and cool new schemes. Our new Me-262 S1 will feature the most complete and accurate paint scheme ever. Every color and marking, including wheelwells, gunbays, gear, and engine intakes have been exactly matched to the superbly accurate 262 in the NASM. I think you will be impressed.

Thanks for your time.

Roy Sutherland
Designer/ Product Manager
21st Century Toys

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Post by toyktdlgh » Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:22 am

Roy thanks so much for taking the time to directly address this issue. I personally feel that a correction decal would be just fine. Most of us here have the ability to apply them our selves. It’s nice to know that you spent so much time researching this plane and all the others you have been involved with. Your planes are fantastic and I cant wait to see the new ME 262 and B-25!!!! :D

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Post by Sabrefan » Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:37 am

Thanks for the info Roy. The ME262 sounds like it will be a winner. :D
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Post by MightyMustang » Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:58 am

Roy, The decal for Old Crow would be just fine by me. Thanks for taking the time to respond to this issue. It shows you care.


:D
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Post by hworth18 » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:14 am

Roy,
As stated above, thanks for taking the time to personally address this issue.. I was surprised to see the name omitted on the starboard side of the A/C because I know 21st is very meticulous in researching their schemes..
I will say that I have done extensive research on Bud's aircraft because I paint the prototypes/customs for Eagles International, and I have painted a few "Old Crows" in my time, although they are the B/C version..



Image
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Post by VMF115 » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:48 am

Every time I see the removable engine cowls on other smaller A/C it makes me want them on the our 1:18 birds, also gun lockers would be a nice touch also.
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Post by MightyMustang » Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:44 pm

hworth18 wrote:Roy,
As stated above, thanks for taking the time to personally address this issue.. I was surprised to see the name omitted on the starboard side of the A/C because I know 21st is very meticulous in researching their schemes..
I will say that I have done extensive research on Bud's aircraft because I paint the prototypes/customs for Eagles International, and I have painted a few "Old Crows" in my time, although they are the B/C version..



Image
Image

Man thats a beauty! I just ordered the 21st Mustang Old Crow and I like everyone else wished it had the opening engine cowl and so fourth but no bigge. I'm just glad to be getting a NMF Old Crow that represents the Mustang of one of the greatest Mustang Aces of all time, Col Bud Anderson.


:D
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Post by tmanthegreat » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:00 pm

Thanks Roy (and TKO) for the response :D

I was hoping to get this sort of analysis from Roy and it explains alot. Glad to see that, omission or not, much time and work was taken to make the markings on "Old Crow" accurate. (As a professional historian and professor in training, I also appreciate Roy's taking into account the issue of memory. That is a very touchy historical tool and must certainly be used with great caution :wink: ) I recieved a near-perfect example, as seen in the above pictures, and this is now my favorite of the 21c Mustangs. It simply has the right balance of paint apps & markings so as to not look too flashy and yet not too plain. Great job!

It would be very cool if 21c could make a replacement decal for "Old Crow" and hopefully that will not take too long and get lost in the shuffle :wink:

Thanks again.
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Post by MightyMustang » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:39 pm

tmanthegreat wrote:Thanks Roy (and TKO) for the response :D

I was hoping to get this sort of analysis from Roy and it explains alot. Glad to see that, omission or not, much time and work was taken to make the markings on "Old Crow" accurate. (As a professional historian and professor in training, I also appreciate Roy's taking into account the issue of memory. That is a very touchy historical tool and must certainly be used with great caution :wink: ) I recieved a near-perfect example, as seen in the above pictures, and this is now my favorite of the 21c Mustangs. It simply has the right balance of paint apps & markings so as to not look too flashy and yet not too plain. Great job!

It would be very cool if 21c could make a replacement decal for "Old Crow" and hopefully that will not take too long and get lost in the shuffle :wink:


Thanks again.

Hey tman. I just ordered Old Crow from one of the board memebers and like you I also want to thank Roy and 21st for for taking the time and research to make this Mustang as accurate as possible. This is the Mustang that I have wanted and waited for for a long time and its the Mustang thats going to close the door on my Mustang collection, in 1/18th scale that is. I hope when my Old Crow arrives its near perfect such as yours is. I hope 21st does make a replacement decal for the missing Old Crow but if they dont some how some way I will get it done.

:D
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Post by CW4USARMY » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:51 pm

Seeing how Roy is reading this thread, any news/info on the QC issues as of late? Especially paint?

Thanks,

Andy

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Post by chunks » Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:05 pm

What's the possibility of getting the screw plugs for the Atlantic Avenger?
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Post by Jackson » Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:28 am

0101
Last edited by Jackson on Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by MightyMustang » Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:03 am

I just got my Old Crow this past weekend. It was flawless. There was no paint problems, no loose parts nothing. It was the most perfect 1/18th Mustang that I have gotton. The only problem? The real Old Crow never had the full invasion stripes underneith the wings. Those were removed along with the Olive drab paint scheme in late 1944/1945. Also the missing Old Crow on the otherside of the engine cowling is the only other negative I have. Otherwise like I said its perfect and now my all time favorite 1/18th P-51D and now my last 1/18th Mustang unless they release a P-51B/C. Great job by Roy and 21st.


:D
"You dont know the power of the darkside, it is your destiny" Lord Vader.

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