New product development on AREA-21

chunks · Post by **chunks** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:30 pm

FieroDude wrote:
OK, now to get psyched up for tomorrow--we are forecast for up to a foot of lake effect snow overnight and in the morning... could be time to get the 'Cat out to play!

Ouch, here at Fairbanks we've only had 6 inches of snow so far this year.

Panzer_M · Post by **Panzer_M** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:38 pm

Threetoughtrucks wrote:With this model, is 21C steering away from "toys" and easing into more correct models for adults?

I can't see that nose radar display lasting more than a minute out of the box after "Little Johnny" gets his jelly smeared mits on it.

Very nice 21C. Is Wally gonna carry the plane with the swatwhatever on the tail. AT supplied it as a decal on theirs to be put on or left off by the customer.

TTT

the radar antenna also don't last on 1/72 kits if someone small wants to play I had my 262B and Me110G Nachts circumsized by a relation, so I redid both in metal...not a fun task, but looked better than the plastic gauge..IMO atleast.

Panzer_M · Post by **Panzer_M** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:40 pm

for 39.99 I'd buy one for sure.

at 69.99 I don't know, about it...I'd prob buy a few of the promised 1:32 109F/Gs coming out.

I would 100% buy a 1:32 262B-1...but the chance for repaints is limited to the fact only 15 were built and all served in the same gruppe in the Late War period.

still the 262 is one of the most striking airframes in my opinion...upthere with the 109G-6 and 190A-8.

For something completely different, how about a 1/18 or 1/32 Arado 196A Floatplane(Used on Kriegsmarine ships/Seaplane bases)..I search forever to find a good kit in 1/72 alone for this guy, but it's also a very nicely designed airframe. IIRC there is one on Display in Ohio or somewhere in the US..Willow Grove maybe..can't recall.

Post by **aferguson** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:46 pm

i'm sure these will be the regular 39.99 price tag. The radar antanae can be done in soft plastic that is very flexible, yet holds its shape well. So it won't poke or break but can be thin and look good.

This will be by far the most exotic 1/18 airplane released to date. I wonder how it will do at retail. My hunch is quite well...it's a sharp looking bird.

MightyMustang · Post by **MightyMustang** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:15 pm

Well guys its an ME-262. I am mystified by this because Admiral Toys already has one coming out. I'm also very surprised that 21st didnt do something new like maybe an A-10 for the boys who have been asking for one or maybe an F-14 Tomcat or MAYBE even a Dauntless to go along with the Avenger. But another ME-262? I dont see a need for another one but I guess that can be said about the P-51 Mustang or and F4U Corsair. I'm not a jet fan fan so its really no big deal for me either way but I just thought 21st should go with something thats never been done yet, but thats just me.

FieroDude · Post by **FieroDude** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:37 pm

I don't know what kind of development time Admiral put into creating their F-86 or Me-262, but I would think their is likely a couple years (or more) of research, design, tooling, etc. involved. And I know the 21st is in the same boat--look at the Avenger! When I first got into this hobby 2+ years ago, the Avenger was on Bad Cat's coming soon list. I suspect that Admiral's Me-262, and maybe even their F-86, took 21st by surprise--both companies had something in process, and when Admiral announced theirs, 21st had two options: try to spin it or improve on it, or scrap a lot of invested time and maybe even tooling. I know that Admiral's Jason made a comment in one of his posts for 1/72 armor about his frustration with Admiral announcing a new product, and someone else suddenly saying "us too".
On the other hand, when I consider some of the "in the works" and prototypes that 21st has mentioned or shown over the years (including an A-10, as I recall), I am surprised that they timed this the way they did. I'm glad to hear it's coming, but the timing makes it sound like another "us too" event--I would have pushed to announce something else, and then announced this bird when the excitement over Admiral's Me-262 dies down. Of course, there is also no telling when the bird will hit the shelves... Spring? Summer? later?
Oh well, still glad to hear, but that's my nickel's worth.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:18 pm

Sorry I have a head cold and I am supped on an English hot tottie

Ok my jumbled thoughts on it,

It’s a nice looking aircraft that will go well next to my AT Me-262 which I think looks great, but I a not going to be the first one to jump on this, seeing how long and frustrating it took to get the mig-15 and f-86 sabers. I probably will get the other paint scheme AT puts out before I buy 21st me-262. However I will buy it, it will make a great addition to the drama scene that I have banging around in my head.

On a second note I feel like part of AT family and Jason has been good to us, I am also questing the release of this bird at this time, I think it could have waited till the master paint was finished. I feel this a slap in the face for AT.

Third at least they are two different versions unless AT has a two-seat version also.
So there is a bit of variety.

I guess I have mixed feelings toward 21st Me-262, I to was hopping for something else a Me-110 or an A-10 would have been nice.

Oh well the cards have been dealt. It is a nice looking and exotic aircraft to add to any collection. Lets just see how long it will take for them to show up in our hands?

tko211 · Post by **tko211** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:24 am

As someone already guessed correctly, these planes take over a full year or two to develop. So the decisions to release the F-86 and the me-262 were already well in the works around the same time as Admiral was making thiers as well. The bottom line is that the chances of overlap on subjects will only increase in the years to come. This is due to the fact that many of the "sure fire" hits have been done already. Like the Mustangs, Corsairs, Me-262's P-47s, Spitfires, Suka, P-38s, P-40's and so on. Everyone has access to the same information here being that the subject is real life vehicles.

Right now I am sure all 3 companies are debating the ability to build say... a Dauntless. Why? because nobody has done one yet so lets do it so that we won't get our toes stepped on. Well that logic works until 2 companies make a move unknowingly in the same direction. This is a fact and it is one reason for this. Some vehicles once started can't nor need to be backed off from simply because there is another in the market.

Another is this... The Distribution / sales demographics are very different between say, Admiral & 21c. The fact is this... We fans here might see the 262 as another 262 in the market. Just as one might see 2 F-86's... but which ones can a mom or dad pick up for little jimmy at the local Wal Mart. Remember that while we have a voice there is the other 90% customer base that will see the me-262 as the only 262 to purchase in 1:18. It is a MAJOR advantage to 21c. Believe it or not we fans directly benefit from this arrangement. Case in point...

How many new planes can 21c put out in one year vs. say BBI or Admiral? Avenger, P-51D (second release) F-86, & Mig-15 make a total of 4 NEW planes... And that is just planes, not counting figures, halftracks, Pak-40, ALL repaints, 1:32 scale planes, tanks, playsets, 1:48 scale planes, 1:144 scale planes, tanks. That all stack up to a BIG BIG year of new releases. I guess without 21c and WM we could all enjoy our 1-2 new planes this year... Sorry armor fans nothing for you because there isn't enough budget. No figures by the way.

I know it sounds cold or heartless, some of you might think I am on a soapbox or whatever and that is fine. My point is simply this and it is concrete FACT. Without 21c owning the majority of the accurate military market what we you have in your collections today? Better question is what would you not have?!

The A-10 is a whole different matter with a whole other set of interesting facts / problems that prevent 21c from pulling a trigger right now. Can they be overcome... sure. When or how is much harder to say.
But don't give up hope in my opinion nobody does a better job of bringing blance to the fan base like 21c. They do listen to us. They do give us what we ask for from time to time in between the other times where they like to do what they want to do. Frankly those are fun too! Starfighter is a great example! There is still 07 news and 21st still has tricks up the sleeve. Rest assured that they keep in interesting do they not?

My more than 2 cents. Thanks for your time. I hope I answered some popular questions here in some way.

-TKO

Post by **aferguson** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:08 am

i agree with everything TKO said. Most of the buying public will either never be aware of the 262 at WM or never be aware of it being sold online. So they will see it at one place only and buy it or not, depending on whether they like it and quite possibly never be aware of the duplication of efforts between the two companies.

Those that are aware, which is basically us keeners, now have a choice of TWO interesting versions of this aircraft. People have been saying "why is 21c putting this plane out now when AT just did".....well, what should they do? Wait until AT releases a nightfighter version too, so they are completely screwed? And f they hadn't modified it into a nightfighter version it would be exactly the same variant as Admiral just released and there'd be even more gripes about that.

Kudos to 21st for making lemonade out of lemons and tweeking their original molds to create a second, interesting version of the 262, to compliment rather than compete with Admiral's.

It's easy to say they should have done something else instead but when a lot of time and money has been poured into something already that's not realistic.

We've all seen how secretive and closely guarded the three companies (21C, AT, BBI) are and this is why. They don't want the competition scooping them and have a big dollar investment go out the window.

And as TKO said as the selection of unproduced aircraft goes down the likelihood of duplication of effort goes up. And this may make the big three blanche. We may never see a Dauntlass or A-10 because each company is worried one of the others may already be making it and get their product to market first. So everyone just freezes and nobody makes it (Jason has already discussed this situation more than once).

Once again this really underscores the need for a coordinated approach between the three companies. Divide up the available subjects equitably amonst them so nobody has to worry about getting burned. This has been proposed by one of the companies but apparently fell on deaf ears.

It's time to forget about corporate pride and to be logical and sensible. It's to the benefit of each of them and it's to the benefit of us and this hobby.

jeffrowse · Post by **jeffrowse** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:01 am

VMF115 wrote:Sorry I have a head cold and I am supped on an English hot tottie

Um, the hot drink is a toddy. "Tottie" is a term used to describe the "fairer sex"...

On the gripping appendage, quite a few aircraft were delivered by female pilots as the men were too busy fighting, so maybe we can have some tottie with the new bird? Uh, 'plane?

flpickupman · Post by **flpickupman** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:06 am

Just saw the new 262 on Area-21. While it doesn't fit into my collecting parameter, this one is probably gonna make the team anyway. I like it a lot.

Morian Miner · Post by **Morian Miner** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:06 am

Agree with Aferg and TKO. We knew 21C had this in the pipes. They need to recoup their investment. I don't think its a slap on AT, especially since its a variant.

As for:

chunks wrote:
Threetoughtrucks wrote:With this model, is 21C steering away from "toys" and easing into more correct models for adults?
I'd hope so!!

A poll:
how many of us get this stuff for the kids?
How many for us?

I buy for me, but also realize as my kids get older, these are thiers. Yes, they know to be careful, but kids are kids. Also, I do "play" with my stuff. And that's one complaint I do have about 21st stuff - they're walking a very thin line between toy and collectible, and that's tough to do. Two examples, my gripes about the S1 RC panzer (see other post), and the Avenger I just got. First time I try to put the gunner in the seat and pivot it, the entire seat assembly breaks out.

So, what should 21C do? I say, to keep their Walmart relation going, (which for all the distribution BS benefits almost everyone), they may need to tone down the collectibility to make a more sturdy "toy" some mom or dad is going to buy Jr at Christmas. How many repeat customer can you expect when the stuff breaks too quickly?

Threetoughtrucks · Post by **Threetoughtrucks** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:17 am

While TKO and Aferg have good points, you just cannot tell me, that sometime in the very long development stage, a little bird didn't let 21C know that AT was making a Me-262 and 21C shifted gears and produced this relatively rare two seater version.

Don't get me wrong, 21C's two seater is just awesome. But as for me, I feel the Me-262 is the wrong plane for the Wally mass market. Very few non collectors will even recognize the plane and the Nazi symbol on the tail won't help. I think 21C's Me-262 will end up very quickly on clearance.........then I'll sure snap one up. I have the AT version and having two of the same planes means alot to a guy like me who is not a plane guy and who is still waiting for a KT, Duece & a half, WSC, Priest, 88mm......21C has done great for us this year and I just will say a big THANKS to 21C. Keep it up.....

TTT

Timbo · Post by **Timbo** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:42 am

Well as I alluded to earlier, there are features on this aircraft that lead me to believe it started out life as a single seater. My only concern now is to help 21st make the most accurate version of this plane they can. The repetitive “they didn’t make what I want” posts really don’t help anyone.

(Not directed at you TTT you just happen to be right above me)

Website · Post by **Teamski** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:53 am

Oh, those sneaky buggers! They're a smart lot they are.....

-Ski

flpickupman · Post by **flpickupman** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:56 am

Threetoughtrucks wrote:and the Nazi symbol on the tail

C'mon TTT, you know a swastika will never be applied at the factory, and the decals will never make it into the Walmart order boxes.

Quixote511 · Post by **Quixote511** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:28 am

Being a wingnut, I am happy that 21st made a different version from AT. For me it is a totally new airplane and not just a rehash or repaint.
To put it in view, I like ground equipment, but I really could not tell you all of the differences between models. Many guys are happy that there is a new variant of the PZKW IV out there(The new RC one). I just look at it and say--oh the barrel is shorter.
So, I guess to each is his own choice. While I am not going to hunt for it like the Huff, I will probably pick one up when I see it.

Moth · Post by **Moth** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:11 am

"We may never see a Dauntlass or A-10 because each company is worried one of the others may already be making it and get their product to market first. So everyone just freezes and nobody makes it "

Disturbing but true...

Why dont the companys talk to each other, and make sure no one is making the same thing?

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:31 am

Moth wrote:"We may never see a Dauntlass or A-10 because each company is worried one of the others may already be making it and get their product to market first. So everyone just freezes and nobody makes it "

Disturbing but true...

Why dont the companys talk to each other, and make sure no one is making the same thing?

One word Pride..........

But Jason tried that, but the others did not want to go along with the idea.

digger · Post by **digger** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:49 am

How bout this,
"I'll take the Mustang, Corsair, 109, Spitfire, Zero and F-4; you take the Bearcat, Yak-3, P-39 and F-5."

I think more than pride would get in the way with this idea...

As for the nightfighter, looks very cool. I think MM was the only one "mystified" by the 262 - we all knew it was coming soon. As said, great audible by 21C to offer variety. And I have to agree that it appears there may be engine access but it could just be an illusion. The twin cockpit is the best part imo, very nice.

Post by **aferguson** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:57 am

yes, well i said divide the subject matter equitably. And that would not be hard. Jason proposed a fair scheme but as said, it fell on deaf ears.

The problem is corporate ego/pride. Pure and simple. Maybe in time, when a few more burns happen, those in charge will see the light, as it were and be prepared to cooperate. There's plenty to go around for everyone. The Japanese kit makers did it in the seventies and eighties and it benefited them all and the hobby.

Moth · Post by **Moth** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:58 am

I have a solution!

21st Century Toys, make a Dornier Do-335 Pfeil, you can be sure no one else makes it.

Admiral, make the Henschel Hs P.75, you can be sure no one else makes it too

BBI, you will do an Aichi Val

Good?

tko211 · Post by **tko211** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:09 am

Pride might be part of it. But here are other points.

21C doesn't worry about it because they have a robust distribution plan that allows for duplication in the market without effecting sales. They really just do what they want because they can. Again it might sound cold or whatever but it is a concrete fact.

Believe it or not 21C doesn't worry at all about BBI or Admiral. They love what they do, they make what they want, and often times it is the same things we all want, and they just plug along. Every so often they ask what is up with the other guys? What do you know? I answer, they shrug say thanks and change almost NOTHING to the existing plans. They just get back to work without so much as a flinch.

I love the fact you guys see the 2 seat version as different. And that is great for everyone involved. But re-read the above paragraph. I STRONGLY suspect it was in the plans to build a nightfighter version all along regardless of what anyone else was doing or was not doing.

Post by **aferguson** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:16 am

"I STRONGLY suspect it was in the plans to build a nightfighter version all along regardless of what anyone else was doing or not doing."

I shall remain skeptical on that point.

Regardless of how it came about, i'm tickled with it. Something offbeat, rare and exotic for a change. Very refreshing. I do wonder about the repaint potential though. I know 21c is big on repaint potential when they pick a subject to make. But i'm sure Roy is all over it...

Timeframe TKO? Late spring, i'm guessing? Can you find out if it will come with two crew figures?

flpickupman · Post by **flpickupman** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:21 am

Shoot. If they can come up with 3 guys for the Avenger, I think they ought to be able to give us a full crew on the 262.