A Little Mad And Some Thoughts.

[MightyMustang]

Hey guys,

First let me start off with why I'm a little mad right now or should I say I was. Earlier this evening a freind of mine who had bought the Merit Int P-51D Mustang, at my suggestion, was cleaning his room and his Merit Mustang took a dive and got busted up pretty badly to the point where it couldnt be fixed. Well he decided to to scrap it for extra parts and took it apart, I should say WE took it apart. Well I split the wings in half to take out the gun barrels to find the name "Trumpeter Models" molded into the plastic! TRUMPETER MODELS! Here I thought Merit Int had made their own molds of the Mustang only to find out that its just a model that I could buy at my local Hobby Shop and build myself! And I could have bought it at a much cheaper price had I known this. I know it may be no big deal to anyone else but to me I got ripped off. Why would a company say that this is their product while it is actually some other companies?

I should have listened to digger when he said why would I want to buy a smaller scale version of the Mustang when it has no working features like the big scale birds in 1/18th? For the money I spent on Merits rip off I could have added a little extra dough and bought a 1/18th Zero or Gallands ME-109. Ok enough of that now onto some thoughts.............

I was re-reading the BBI Hellcat posts and thought about all the detail they were going to put into it and thought what might have the BBI Corsair have been like with a removable engine cowl and ammo covers? Or how would BBI's and 21st's new tool Mustangs be like with the same features? They would be very cool no doubt. I have put alot of detail into some of my 1/18th fighters but they would be nicer if they had removable cowls to show off what powers them but I am very limited in that department. If BBI could have followed through with their original Hellcat plan I dont think ANY 1/18th aircraft would have beat it. But as I said before I'm happy just to be getting the Grumman Hellcat in 1/18th scale.

Its cool to be a 1/18th collector these days because we have all so much to choose from from 3 great companies. We have airplanes, tanks, figures, you name it, we have got it except for the A-10 guys who I'm keeping my fingers crossed for. They deserve an A-10 and I think one of the big 3 should make one. Maybe soon guys so dont give up hope.

Now if we could only get a B-17. I know its far fetched but can you imagin a 1/32nd B-17F or G? How about a 1/18th scale version? The possiblities could be endless. Oh and the fun I could have with one of those in my collection!

We should all enjoy this hobby of ours boys cause god only knows how long it will last. I'm hoping along time with many great releases to come. I think 2007 is going to be a great year for us with many great surprises as well. The Hellcat is the big one for me and who knows we may see a b-17 as well? Or maybe a Mustang with a removable engine cowl with detailed Merlin Engine?

One way or another its going to be fun and exciting.

[VMF115]

You tell them!!!!!!!!

I agree with you a hundred percent.

I my self-feel cheated. It seems we are at the will and mercy of what the Big 3 sell us and tell us that we should be grateful for what we have and for the most part I am but I would like more detail.

[USCGSARdog]

MM..... Forgive me if I seem a bit slow, after all, it is 06:15. I am trying to follow your post.... who got ripped off, you or your friend?

-Rob

[tpa05]

Yea I think you're taking your buddies loss pretty hard.

[flpickupman]

Sounds like both were misled. I'll admit I'd be kinda peeved if, for instance, I bought a 21C 1/32 plane and discovered it was a pre-assembled Monogram kit after the fact. Especially if it was significantly more expensive than the kit would have been.

[aferguson]

you're sure Merit isn't some liscensed division of Trumpeter? That offers built up version(s) of Trumpeter kits? Trumpeter has a division that offers a built up r/c version of their t-34 kit. Would you be mad about that too?

What your friend paid for is a built and assembled model. What difference does it make if it was a Trumpeter kit to begin with? The Trumpeter kit was available long before the Merit one, did your friend buy the Trumpeter kit and build it? If not, why not? Why was he willing to pay so much more for this Merit model than he would have for a Trumpeter kit that he could have made himself?

[Threetoughtrucks]

The lesson is:

Always listen to Digger. I have heard, besides being full of accurate and good advice, he is 700 years old and floats along side you while dispensing wisdom.....

Merit Int gave me and hundreds(?) of 1/6 guys a black eye by selling a PAK 37mm gun that was so fragile, parts were broken right out of the box..............I was able to buy a broken one to have enough parts to make one whole gun. The gun was made of very poor quality resin. Merit Int stinks big time as far as I'm concerned.

TTT

[MightyMustang]

To clear things up guys I feel like I was the one cheated. Not my freind Dave who could give a crap less.


I guess I can be to anal about things at times.

[hworth18]

To clear things up guys I feel like I was the one cheated. Not my freind Dave who could give a crap less.


I guess I can be to anal about things at times.

Many times it is easier for a manufacturer to take another companies product and repackage it as its own.. This is done more often then you think...
I would like to add though that if you went out and bought a Trumpeter 1/24 scale Mustang or Bf-109G kit, bought the paints, glue and spent the hours it takes to make it look right, you would have spent FAR more than the price you/he paid for the one already built...

I will be buying the Merit Hartmann Bf-109G when it comes out, because the kit alone retails for $80+ easy..

And on a side note, the Eagleston 1/24 P-51 kit retails for $107 from Squadron.com...

[MightyMustang]

To clear things up guys I feel like I was the one cheated. Not my freind Dave who could give a crap less.


I guess I can be to anal about things at times.

Many times it is easier for a manufacturer to take another companies product and repackage it as its own.. This is done more often then you think...
I would like to add though that if you went out and bought a Trumpeter 1/24 scale Mustang or Bf-109G kit, bought the paints, glue and spent the hours it takes to make it look right, you would have spent FAR more than the price you/he paid for the one already built...

I will be buying the Merit Hartmann Bf-109G when it comes out, because the kit alone retails for $80+ easy..

And on a side note, the Eagleston 1/24 P-51 kit retails for $107 from Squadron.com...

hworth18,

I have to admit you are right.

[Jolly Roger]

The lesson is:

Always listen to Digger. I have heard, besides being full of accurate and good advice, he is 700 years old and floats along side you while dispensing wisdom.....

TTT

listen to him, you must!

[tko211]

smells like a licence deal to me... otherwise it would be lawsuit time for sure.

On the note of detail... It isn't that hard to follow really, one might also need to look harder at where it all started to help explain it all. To me the arguement of detail is driven by several factors. Consider the follwing points.

1. 1:18 military started with GI joe in the late 70's... They were fantasy military TOYS. sold at mass retail. START by comparing your favorite & most detailed airplane to say a "rattler A-10 rip off" and tell me if there are any improvements in detail, paint, engineering, realism.

2. fast forward to mid 90's and compare a TOY like an X-ming from star wars. I know it isn't the same subject but look at the construction and detail on that ship next to say... an Avenger. You will find that detail, paint etc has improved over the 70's version but honestly tell me, does it compare to todays Avenger in terms of detail, parts, paint, scale etc.

3. By the late 90's XD 1:18 scale burst onto the scene. 21st Centrtury TOYS, starts to make realistic military TOYS! So put yourself in thier shoes. How do you make a realsitic model based on real life aircraft and still make it meet TOY requirements... Toy requirements include the following. IT has to be rugged, must minimize smaller "choking hazard parts", and it must fit into the retailers requirements for price and shelf placement.

4. After a few years of success with 21st, competition eneters the market. So just like car companies, video games, movies, and many many other industries. The game of "one-upping" happens and detial / working parts become new features and continue to push the envelope. Older molds become obsolete. Look at the very first XD mustang and compare it to the XD mustang released earlier this year and tell me if there is a difference or ANY improvement at all.... You already know the answer.

5. 21st had LED this market with detail and realism WITHOUT driving up costs to the customer. We still purchase at a TOY price point but the line is now blurred... The "TOYS" now look more like functional models! Some look like they can get up and fly under thier own power!

6. I understand the request for more detail... personally I think we have seen 21st meet that request. But at come point a comprmise has to take place in order to produce these models. We can simply say, fine... charge me more I will pay it for more detail. Well you might but Wal Mart won't!!! If they don't buy it first we can't buy it second. So you then say fine, sell it to only model stores and On-line... OK well how would you like to buy the same Avenger you have now say... 150.00?
THATS before you get more detail then there is now. So add some interior, go all out on attenna masts, better detialed torpedo, whatever else and so on... now you are looking at 200+ for that model.... 21st sells 1/100th of what they used to and within a few years you can't buy a single thing from them anywhere at ANY price because they are out of business! Now your collection consists of only 3-4 planes as opposed to the 50+ that 21st has built and offered.

I am not trying to be harsh or rude or anything like that. I have not been offended by anyones posts here. I am simply stating the facts and point out the perhaps not so obvious.

MY point is this... We get a HELL of a deal on these 1:18 scale "TOYS" I only wish I were 10 again! But I will settle for being a big kid now!

[holensock]

Well said, tko!

[DocTodd]

I like your points TKO. There has to be compromises because they have to be able to sell a good number of planes for a decent price to be able to produce them. Believe it or not they sell more than the ones we as a collector group buy. I don't think we constitute a large enough group to be the only group they try to satisfy. I do think as competition continues that will help bring out more detailed models and that will be great fun.
Todd

[VMF115]

I do think as competition continues that will help bring out more detailed models and that will be great fun.
Todd

Why wait for the competition to be barking at your back door to include more detail????

As for 21st I think they raise the bar in detail with their F-86, while Admiral toys raised the bar in paint applications, there a new company and it should get real interesting to see the detail that they put out in their 1:18 aircraft.

[tko211]

All good things! I am just happy that the hobby has grown so much as to now include subjects like the MiG-15, F-86, Pak-40, the new german variant Hanomags New figures and so on. And the fact that all of this has happened in one year! Remember the old days of only 1 or 2 new models in one year?

Look at all the many scales and price points!
Clearly the military toy collector market is very much alive and kicking! In Late Nov, Early December fans will start to get a peek into 2007 product line. I guarantee there are some items there that will excite everyone

[holensock]

And as long as 21C can keep the stuff going to Online stores, I'll be a very happy man!!! (I've all but given up on any chances that the WM's in my area will ever see any of it).

[MightyMustang]

smells like a licence deal to me... otherwise it would be lawsuit time for sure.

On the note of detail... It isn't that hard to follow really, one might also need to look harder at where it all started to help explain it all. To me the arguement of detail is driven by several factors. Consider the follwing points.

1. 1:18 military started with GI joe in the late 70's... They were fantasy military TOYS. sold at mass retail. START by comparing your favorite & most detailed airplane to say a "rattler A-10 rip off" and tell me if there are any improvements in detail, paint, engineering, realism.

2. fast forward to mid 90's and compare a TOY like an X-ming from star wars. I know it isn't the same subject but look at the construction and detail on that ship next to say... an Avenger. You will find that detail, paint etc has improved over the 70's version but honestly tell me, does it compare to todays Avenger in terms of detail, parts, paint, scale etc.

3. By the late 90's XD 1:18 scale burst onto the scene. 21st Centrtury TOYS, starts to make realistic military TOYS! So put yourself in thier shoes. How do you make a realsitic model based on real life aircraft and still make it meet TOY requirements... Toy requirements include the following. IT has to be rugged, must minimize smaller "choking hazard parts", and it must fit into the retailers requirements for price and shelf placement.

4. After a few years of success with 21st, competition eneters the market. So just like car companies, video games, movies, and many many other industries. The game of "one-upping" happens and detial / working parts become new features and continue to push the envelope. Older molds become obsolete. Look at the very first XD mustang and compare it to the XD mustang released earlier this year and tell me if there is a difference or ANY improvement at all.... You already know the answer.

5. 21st had LED this market with detail and realism WITHOUT driving up costs to the customer. We still purchase at a TOY price point but the line is now blurred... The "TOYS" now look more like functional models! Some look like they can get up and fly under thier own power!

6. I understand the request for more detail... personally I think we have seen 21st meet that request. But at come point a comprmise has to take place in order to produce these models. We can simply say, fine... charge me more I will pay it for more detail. Well you might but Wal Mart won't!!! If they don't buy it first we can't buy it second. So you then say fine, sell it to only model stores and On-line... OK well how would you like to buy the same Avenger you have now say... 150.00?
THATS before you get more detail then there is now. So add some interior, go all out on attenna masts, better detialed torpedo, whatever else and so on... now you are looking at 200+ for that model.... 21st sells 1/100th of what they used to and within a few years you can't buy a single thing from them anywhere at ANY price because they are out of business! Now your collection consists of only 3-4 planes as opposed to the 50+ that 21st has built and offered.

I am not trying to be harsh or rude or anything like that. I have not been offended by anyones posts here. I am simply stating the facts and point out the perhaps not so obvious.

MY point is this... We get a HELL of a deal on these 1:18 scale "TOYS" I only wish I were 10 again! But I will settle for being a big kid now!

Very well said tko.

[Jesse James]

1:18 military started with GI joe in the late 70's...

I'm nitpicking here, but that wasn't in the 1970's. GIJ:ARAH came out in 1982 with about a year's development prior (maybe more) to compete with Star Wars which dominated the toy aisles at the time...

I'm busting your balls TK, don't worry.

From a SW collector's POV first and foremost, let me say... If I could get an X-Wing, to-scale, for $45... I would drop the money down for as many as I could afford and start repainting squadron markings on them for various pilot figures.

As of now, I get an X-Wing that's roughly 80% the scale it should be and which features a fraction of the individual parts an XD plane is, and it all costs me the same price as if I bought an average XD plane (P-38, Mustang, etc... Not the jets of course though).

For that... I think XD plane guys are pretty fortunate, honestly. I mean, SW is a HEAVILY supported toy line. It's one of the top boy's toys in 2006 and it was the top in 2005... I wish it got that kind of attention vehicle-wise, and for that price.

Hell I wish they got the attention figure-wise considering figures are $7 each now.

I'm pretty happy with XD overall... My gripes come in diversity in armor/land vehicles and figures more than anything really... Oh, and availability (from BBI or 21st). I can't find anything for the life of me, and that's the usual routine around here... 21st (and they do have to take blame) tends to screw the pooch with that, mostly by seemingly being locked into WM as their partner.

AAANNNYYYYWAY, yeah, I think the XD world is pretty great... Just wish I immerse myself in it more easily by finding it more readily.

[tpa05]

I think as far as aircraft are concerned we're doin' pretty good. As I've mentioned in another post, I'm a pilot myself and so I'm pretty picky as far as aircraft are concerned and I think all of the aircraft (1:18 and 1:32 scale) that both 21c and bbi provide are pretty damn good. With regard to 21c my only real complaint would be the foggy canopy glass that seems so prevalent on most of their aircraft. Other than that, the planes pass muster - 'nuf said.

I mention the aircraft (first) as it seems that it's toward the planes that this post has focused. My feeling(s) regarding armour are pretty much the same - both provide a pretty good product. However; I think there are some genuine concerns (and complaints) with regard to the figures provided by the different companies.

TKO, I'd like to hear you feelings regarding figures alone and how you would compare the product that we're seeing offered on the shelves by 21c as compared to other manufacturers. Again, the planes and other vehicles match up pretty good (IMO). I'd like to hear your take on figures alone.

[luftpanzer]

Merit Int is a distrubitor not an manufacture. Ive dealt with them on the wholesale side, and i think they are a bit expensive on that side as well.

[tpa05]

In and earlier reply I wrote the following:

I think as far as aircraft are concerned we're doin' pretty good. As I've mentioned in another post, I'm a pilot myself and so I'm pretty picky as far as aircraft are concerned and I think all of the aircraft (1:18 and 1:32 scale) that both 21c and bbi provide are pretty damn good. With regard to 21c my only real complaint would be the foggy canopy glass that seems so prevalent on most of their aircraft. Other than that, the planes pass muster - 'nuf said.

I mention the aircraft (first) as it seems that it's toward the planes that this post has focused. My feeling(s) regarding armour are pretty much the same - both provide a pretty good product. However; I think there are some genuine concerns (and complaints) with regard to the figures provided by the different companies.

TKO, I'd like to hear you feelings regarding figures alone and how you would compare the product that we're seeing offered on the shelves by 21c as compared to other manufacturers. Again, the planes and other vehicles match up pretty good (IMO). I'd like to hear your take on figures alone.

Ok, no takers????

[MightyMustang]

In and earlier reply I wrote the following:

I think as far as aircraft are concerned we're doin' pretty good. As I've mentioned in another post, I'm a pilot myself and so I'm pretty picky as far as aircraft are concerned and I think all of the aircraft (1:18 and 1:32 scale) that both 21c and bbi provide are pretty damn good. With regard to 21c my only real complaint would be the foggy canopy glass that seems so prevalent on most of their aircraft. Other than that, the planes pass muster - 'nuf said.

I mention the aircraft (first) as it seems that it's toward the planes that this post has focused. My feeling(s) regarding armour are pretty much the same - both provide a pretty good product. However; I think there are some genuine concerns (and complaints) with regard to the figures provided by the different companies.

TKO, I'd like to hear you feelings regarding figures alone and how you would compare the product that we're seeing offered on the shelves by 21c as compared to other manufacturers. Again, the planes and other vehicles match up pretty good (IMO). I'd like to hear your take on figures alone.

Ok, no takers????

No takers? What is it that your suggesting?


And for luftpanzer,

That is my fault. I thought Merit made their own Mustangs. I should have looked into it further but no big deal. The bottom line is I guess is that they just saved me time on building another Mustang. I gave my Merit Stang to the little kid next door because he loves airplanes. So I did my good deed for they day.

[nfafan]

<SNIP>
3. By the late 90's XD 1:18 scale burst onto the scene. 21st Centrtury TOYS, starts to make realistic military TOYS! So put yourself in thier shoes. How do you make a realsitic model based on real life aircraft and still make it meet TOY requirements... Toy requirements include the following. IT has to be rugged, must minimize smaller "choking hazard parts", and it must fit into the retailers requirements for price and shelf placement.

<SNIP>

5. 21st had LED this market with detail and realism WITHOUT driving up costs to the customer. We still purchase at a TOY price point but the line is now blurred... The "TOYS" now look more like functional models! Some look like they can get up and fly under thier own power!

6. I understand the request for more detail... personally I think we have seen 21st meet that request. But at come point a comprmise has to take place in order to produce these models. We can simply say, fine... charge me more I will pay it for more detail. Well you might but Wal Mart won't!!! If they don't buy it first we can't buy it second. So you then say fine, sell it to only model stores and On-line... OK well how would you like to buy the same Avenger you have now say... 150.00?
THATS before you get more detail then there is now. So add some interior, go all out on attenna masts, better detialed torpedo, whatever else and so on... now you are looking at 200+ for that model.... 21st sells 1/100th of what they used to and within a few years you can't buy a single thing from them anywhere at ANY price because they are out of business! Now your collection consists of only 3-4 planes as opposed to the 50+ that 21st has built and offered.

I am not trying to be harsh or rude or anything like that. I have not been offended by anyones posts here. I am simply stating the facts and point out the perhaps not so obvious.

MY point is this... We get a HELL of a deal on these 1:18 scale "TOYS" I only wish I were 10 again! But I will settle for being a big kid now!

Exactly.

Which is exactly why we can't get some of the stuff we'd like to see in 1/18th, like a JU88 for instance. It would be too cost prohibitive for the mass marketers to sell as a TOY.
And as bad as I want a huge JU88A-4, or B17, I'm not in a position to be dropping several hundred bux for one. And neither is Wallymart.