Roundels on P-51s?

Morian Miner · Post by **Morian Miner** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 6:04 pm

Here's a question for all you warbird experts - when they painted roundels on wings, was it standard to only have one on the bottom and one on the top of the wings, like on the BBi P-51? I'm in the process of finally repainting mine, and have a only one picture to work off of. Trying to decide if I need to paint one roundel on the top and bottom of the wings, or two (one on each side).

Post by **aferguson** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 6:16 pm

British roundels were always painted on both upper wings and almost always on both lower wings...sometimes they were left off the lower wings altogether (as in the case of most bombers) but when they were applied they were applied to both wings, not asymetrically, like on US aircraft.

The only exception i know of was during Desert Storm when Tornados and i think most if not all RAF planes had roundels on just the upper left and lower right wing. Why this was done i'm not sure. They were low viz markings and very tiny to begin with.

Anyway, the Americans started doing it to avoid confusion with Japanese planes. It was found that the shape rather than the colour of the national emblem was what was easiest to recognize, and at a distance, the US blue roundels with white star in the middle was being confused with the Japanese hinomaru (the red circles on Japanese aircraft). So the US added the bar to the roundel and had it asymetrically applied to its aircraft.....top of the left and bottom of the right wings.

Many British and Commonwealth aircraft, in the Pacific, did the same thing.....adding bars to a modified roundel (no red in it) and applying it asymetrically to its aircraft. This was discontinued after the war but the US never reverted back to their pre-war marking system.

Morian Miner · Post by **Morian Miner** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:12 pm

Sounds good. Thanks for the info.

Flytiger · Post by **Flytiger** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:03 am

There were local variations in markings. When the 8th AF had pretty much driven the Germans from the skies, the Allied fighters were going after ground targets at very low altitudes and often in proximity to Allied ground forces who had anti-aircraft guns. At 300+ mph a gunner doesn't have a lot of time to make an accurate ID on something coming straight at him and a lot of pilots brought home holes made by friendly fire (or were knocked out of the sky!)

The ET's leading ace, Gabby Gabreski, not only had customized camoflage, he had over-sized cocardes (the French word pronounced "cockade" used in the USAA designations for the "stars") painted on both undersides of the wing. He wanted the guys on the ground to realize it wasn't a Focke Wulf coming their way.

21st Century picked up on the lower side size difference for the Eagleston bubble-top and as far as I know, Gabreski was the only one who had them put on both wings.

The authoritative work on USAAF markings is "USAAF Aircraft Markings and Camouflage 1941 - 1947" by Robert D. and Victor G. Archer, which came out in 1997. It retails for $80, so if someone has a specific question, just post it and I'll try and get around to it.

Morian Miner · Post by **Morian Miner** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:20 am

Good info, Flytiger.

Actually, I'm repainting a P51 to be a F51D flown by the Somalis after Italy pulled out. I have one picture to go on - a side profile and a note that they used 6 national markings on the plane. I would assume 2 on top and bottom of wing, and one on fuselage, except there is a flag on the tail. But, figuring this would be a new army and air force, they would have as many markings as possible to identify themselves to friendlies (based on both Flytigers and Afergs comments).

Post by **aferguson** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:41 pm

it's a safe bet. Most nations put their insignia on the top and bottom of both wings and on either side of the fuselage. There are variations but if you have to guess, that's the way i would go.

tmanthegreat · Post by **tmanthegreat** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 1:07 pm

Flytiger wrote:The ET's leading ace, Gabby Gabreski, not only had customized camoflage, he had over-sized cocardes (the French word pronounced "cockade" used in the USAA designations for the "stars") painted on both undersides of the wing. He wanted the guys on the ground to realize it wasn't a Focke Wulf coming their way.

You can see the oversized national insignia quite clearly on the 32x P-47 in the new Dogfight packs. The plane is patterned after Col Dave Schilling's aircraft from the 56th FG, of which Gabreski was also a part.