Either a true PzKw 38(t)
or a Marder III H/M, Grille, Hetzer.
The chassis served throughout the war, which is more than alot of the current models out did, and was a rather sucessful in the various roles it preformed I doubt something like a BergeHetzer would work, but either a Marder III ausf M(Last model as in Saving Private Ryan) or Hetzer which went post-war and continued under Czech Production and served with the Swiss Army as the modified G13 IIRC.
I'd like 21st/FOV to make something based on the 38(t)
I like German armor as much as the next guy, but 21st C really needs to produce some more ALLIED armor and vehicles. The sherman dozer is an interesting addition, but another sherman none the less. The M7 priest will come out someday which will be great, but look how long it took to get that thing in production. We need a duece-n-half, m-8 greyhound, m-10 tank destroyer, one of those dodge scout jeep/trucks, a halftrack with the howitzer mount, WC-57 command car, m-8 howitzer, and possibly even an ambulance....is anyone with me on this??? I know that 21st C can't produce all at once, but maybe 1 allied for every 1 german?? What about the Brits....another long list....The allies are sorely misrepresented....
?
We need M-10 tank destroyer? Don't they already make one?
For US There is a Chaffee, multiple Shermans, a halftrack, and with fov you have a Jeep, Amphibian GPA, a Grant, a Pershing, an M16 and 105mm howitzer (not to mention a Matilda for the Brits, and a T-34 for the Ruskies).
Frankly if you want a realistic allied force you will need about 10 Shermans for every piece of Axis armor, so actually the US armor is pretty well represented just by virtue of numerous Shermans out there.
There is so much in 1/32 with obviously more to come I think all that is needed is patience. EDITED for cheerful demeanor.
For US There is a Chaffee, multiple Shermans, a halftrack, and with fov you have a Jeep, Amphibian GPA, a Grant, a Pershing, an M16 and 105mm howitzer (not to mention a Matilda for the Brits, and a T-34 for the Ruskies).
Frankly if you want a realistic allied force you will need about 10 Shermans for every piece of Axis armor, so actually the US armor is pretty well represented just by virtue of numerous Shermans out there.
There is so much in 1/32 with obviously more to come I think all that is needed is patience. EDITED for cheerful demeanor.
No, they don't already make an M-10 tank destroyer, its a m-18 hellcat. Anyway I voiced some of my concerns to the 21st Century folks and here is how they replied:
"I hear your frustration and I understand it. The amount of German armor is staggering, while the Allies are seriously under represented.
While you are certainly correct about this, the hard truth is that the sales of allied armor just do not come close to matching that of the German stuff. The realities of business dictate the choices to a good extent. I am working hard to try to find subjects that will be both exciting to the collector and commercially viable. Repaints are the lifeblood of this market, and even you will have to admit that the allied equipment was less than inspiring in this area. The overwhelming percentage of US armor was Olive Drab. Very little in the way of badges, names, or colorful markings are present to make the purchase of more than one attractive to the customer...."
"We are certainly considering some of the subjects you mentioned, as well as others you have not.....That said, watch our website for new developments. Who knows, you might be pleasantly surprised over the next year with some of our new products!"
That cheered me up a little bit. To me, a sherman is a sherman is a sherman.....
"I hear your frustration and I understand it. The amount of German armor is staggering, while the Allies are seriously under represented.
While you are certainly correct about this, the hard truth is that the sales of allied armor just do not come close to matching that of the German stuff. The realities of business dictate the choices to a good extent. I am working hard to try to find subjects that will be both exciting to the collector and commercially viable. Repaints are the lifeblood of this market, and even you will have to admit that the allied equipment was less than inspiring in this area. The overwhelming percentage of US armor was Olive Drab. Very little in the way of badges, names, or colorful markings are present to make the purchase of more than one attractive to the customer...."
"We are certainly considering some of the subjects you mentioned, as well as others you have not.....That said, watch our website for new developments. Who knows, you might be pleasantly surprised over the next year with some of our new products!"
That cheered me up a little bit. To me, a sherman is a sherman is a sherman.....
Oops..M18.
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Wieslaw
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From this point of view, for example, the Polish Shermans Mk. III (M4A2) used by our 2nd Corps in Italy would be "both exciting to the collector and commercially viable". At least about 50 tanks had the own names painted on the hull in various colors and with various letter styles. The colorful badges and markings and the interesting three-color african camouflage replaced then by the european Olive Drab! Neither 21CT nor FoV produce this "export" version of Sherman (with the British M4A3 from Italy FoV made a mistake, it had to be M4A2!).
For our freedom and yours
I have to agree with Hyguy21. I would love to see those as well. However 21 C does make a good point. What the allies had going for them was how easily they adapted their core units. I think this is where 21C and Fov could find a trade off in cost vs. profit. Take the Sherman M4A3 for example. You could have....
One with VVSS suspention
One with HVSS suspention
One with Duplex Drive
One with Rhino blades
One with a Dozer
Easy Eight (for ostketten)
One with a Mine Flail
The British FireFly
The 105mm Howitzer version
My favorite...one with a Calliope Rocket Launcher
One with an assault bridge on top
One with a Flame Thrower
The point is they could make alot of these with just a little more tooling. Not as cost effective as repainting but better than a whole new mold eh? I do realize I make adapting sound easier than I'm sure it is....but it can't be THAT bad.
I really want to see what FoV announces as for 2007.
-H
One with VVSS suspention
One with HVSS suspention
One with Duplex Drive
One with Rhino blades
One with a Dozer
Easy Eight (for ostketten)
One with a Mine Flail
The British FireFly
The 105mm Howitzer version
My favorite...one with a Calliope Rocket Launcher
One with an assault bridge on top
One with a Flame Thrower
The point is they could make alot of these with just a little more tooling. Not as cost effective as repainting but better than a whole new mold eh? I do realize I make adapting sound easier than I'm sure it is....but it can't be THAT bad.
I really want to see what FoV announces as for 2007.
-H
That's why my local Walmarts have stacks of stugs and Brumbars Just sitting and most definately NOT selling. I see this "argument" from the consumer side and it doesn't wash! I can see the marketing realities at my local store! 109Gs 1/18th scale in stacks some have been there for months, the only 1/32 scale stuff the new battle sets with the 109E or P-40. No Macchis, no Zeros, three different stores. The damn stug IVs and brumbars have been there so long I'm going to start naming them. Of that series of PzkwIVs only the early IVd sold out, and those disapeared immediately! Why? because the IVD was pretty close to correct in appearance. Clue!! They say that the panzers given them the ability to do multiple repaints. That's only pertinant IF you do a good job on the paint scheams AND put ZIM where it belongs. What good are repaints if they are as BUT_UGLY as the most recent offerings (that's why the stugs and brumbars are still at Walmart!). I'll confess, I bought a stug IV. I bought it so I could snatch the tracks off and put them on my Mobilwagon! Then I put that ugly stug back in it's box and tossed it out in my shed. Back in the bad old days when I used to build my tanks out of boxes full of pieces this same theory held sway, until Dragon and Academy decided to breaK THE MOLD and make kits of Shermans, all kinds of Shermans, oh, and JS2s, and JSUs, and T-80s etc. It's boilerplate, bovine fecal mater! I have twenty 1/32nd scale tanks on display. Seven are from 21st, King Tiger (late model tank doesn't require zim good paint job), Mobilewagon (good paintjob zim optional again), a M24 (green tank, white star looks great!), M18 (see M24), Panzer IV (good old panzer grey with markings, what a German tank should look like!), Panzer IIIE/F? (faded sand over pgrey, of all the paint jobs I've seen on 21st vehicals this is the best as it immitates very well a obscure historical pattern). Most of the best stuff they have done is either green or grey, go with it! They want to do Panzers do the Blitz Panzers, do Afrika Korps. They can't do zim, they pick the ugliest paint schemes. Hey 21st THINK GREEN. Their comments about no skin options is a demonstration of the fact that THEY HAVEN'T DONE THEIR HOMEWORK! How could FOV be on their third T-34 skin? What is it, five or six Shermans? Shermans did have variantion in color and camo. Soviet tanks were mostly solid green, but many had elaborate slogans painter in white or red on the turrets! What's going to happent to that M7 when it hits the stores? It'll disappear faster than you can blink, doesn't matter how many they make.Hyguy21 wrote: While you are certainly correct about this, the hard truth is that the sales of allied armor just do not come close to matching that of the German stuff.
That cheered me up a little bit. To me, a sherman is a sherman is a sherman.....
Sorry about the diatribe, where are my pills...
David
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Panzer_M
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compared to the number of Brumbär < not even the wartime name of the panzer, it's a post war moniker, Tigers, Tiger, Jagdpanthers, and Jagdtigers.There are better choices.aferguson wrote:how bout some british and russian armour too? I believe those countries participated in the war as well, did they not?
How about some armour that was more commonly seen on the battlefield for the Axis.
StuG III ausf G..Though I owned the first FOV Stug week of release. But just stating one of the most numerous pieces of Wehrmacht armour, and yet under represented in the market. although over 6000 Ausf Gs were made during the war compared to about 500 Tiger IIs.
Hetzer
Marder
Panzer II
M13/40
Medicated
Good call, Pz38t stock. No bells whistles etc. KOOOL Idea-I've seen many pictures of Panzers travelling in Russia in summer '41 with these little gas trailers behind them. My vote-PZ38t early Russian campaign with the little gascan wagon! cool.
David
David
Its still a business plane and simple! The cold hard facts are all about dollars! 21st is telling the simple truth! Fact is a King Tiger looks cooler to most over a little Stug! $$$$$ Dollars could care less what was produced more by the axis!
I think you guys are correct, but only hitting part off the problem. 21st needs a better strategy! A better business plan. No british armor yet we have two sets of Brit figs and a set of Brit Paras on the way?????
Three sets of brits have been made this after the US figs had stopped? Yet US armor etc continued? We have not seen German figs in quite some time either???? Minus DAK? so how many German pieces came in a DAK scheme? 0? one pnzer III?
I think it would be better if they picked up a theater type release. Paint scheme figures etc. Release then move to the next theme! If they did say normandie and then moved on to Eastern front, Pacific then go back and revist each with new figs, field guns acss, re-paints and perhaps a new vehicel or two? It gives collectors a chance to get some of what they missed out on, it brings new stuff etc.
In todays world its a bitt off? we get a Zero and some Japanese inf. This Pacific release is for who? No USMC yet, no Allied oposition. Instead we got russians, with no Germans for the russians to fight? Lets say the last releases were all pacific based.
In place of the above two you get! Zero, Japanese Inf. USMC inf (in place of russians) an AMTRAC (in place of Brumbar) Type one or Chi ha (in place of Pnzr IV) Corsair (in place of Machi) You get the Pacific painted Sherman, In place of Afrika Korp you get USMC series two! (in place of Brits 8th series two) you get Japanese infantry or heavy weapons set?
Later on when it comes back around in six months or so you get your first series of repaints. Cammo versions of allied and Japanese, navy colors on allied vehicels?you get an LCVP re-do from your european releases, a redone Amtrac repaint and a turreted version, throw out some new figs and artillary.
IMHO! Just a long winded thought!
I think you guys are correct, but only hitting part off the problem. 21st needs a better strategy! A better business plan. No british armor yet we have two sets of Brit figs and a set of Brit Paras on the way?????
Three sets of brits have been made this after the US figs had stopped? Yet US armor etc continued? We have not seen German figs in quite some time either???? Minus DAK? so how many German pieces came in a DAK scheme? 0? one pnzer III?
I think it would be better if they picked up a theater type release. Paint scheme figures etc. Release then move to the next theme! If they did say normandie and then moved on to Eastern front, Pacific then go back and revist each with new figs, field guns acss, re-paints and perhaps a new vehicel or two? It gives collectors a chance to get some of what they missed out on, it brings new stuff etc.
In todays world its a bitt off? we get a Zero and some Japanese inf. This Pacific release is for who? No USMC yet, no Allied oposition. Instead we got russians, with no Germans for the russians to fight? Lets say the last releases were all pacific based.
In place of the above two you get! Zero, Japanese Inf. USMC inf (in place of russians) an AMTRAC (in place of Brumbar) Type one or Chi ha (in place of Pnzr IV) Corsair (in place of Machi) You get the Pacific painted Sherman, In place of Afrika Korp you get USMC series two! (in place of Brits 8th series two) you get Japanese infantry or heavy weapons set?
Later on when it comes back around in six months or so you get your first series of repaints. Cammo versions of allied and Japanese, navy colors on allied vehicels?you get an LCVP re-do from your european releases, a redone Amtrac repaint and a turreted version, throw out some new figs and artillary.
IMHO! Just a long winded thought!
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DrMindbender
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I think it's understandable to a certain point that german armor, due to it's overall complexity and sometimes "funkyness" in it's engineering sells far more easily. But what i don't understand is why they don't include more variants, for exemple the sdkfz 251....it had many many variants yet we see almost exclusively the troop transport 251/1. FOV got the 251/9 which is cool but not ,IMO ,the best one.
Also, I'd like to see more French AFVs, i liked their clunky style of armor like the Char B1 and the Somua, H39 and R35 to name a few.Yet i agree with the post above about how they should concentrate on theaters of operations/campaigns would be easier for the collector who likes to make dioramas and such.
Anyways, i'm kinda torn between getting the largest collection of AFVs with as many different types of armor as possible and making cool war scenes which requires another kind of marketing strategy on the part of the companies who produce these vehicles...in any case, i'll stop before (or maybe it's too late) this post turns into a rant.[/quote]
Also, I'd like to see more French AFVs, i liked their clunky style of armor like the Char B1 and the Somua, H39 and R35 to name a few.Yet i agree with the post above about how they should concentrate on theaters of operations/campaigns would be easier for the collector who likes to make dioramas and such.
Anyways, i'm kinda torn between getting the largest collection of AFVs with as many different types of armor as possible and making cool war scenes which requires another kind of marketing strategy on the part of the companies who produce these vehicles...in any case, i'll stop before (or maybe it's too late) this post turns into a rant.[/quote]
Matt
www.worldwariiattic.com
www.worldwariiattic.com
1/32 armor
Dr., welcome. 
We all rant here so don't worry about that.
Funny you ask for hanomag variants b/c I know on the 1/18 side some people were not that excited when 21st announced one. Oh, and I think the one fov just released is pretty damn cool - I would love to see it in good ole 1:18.
We all rant here so don't worry about that.Funny you ask for hanomag variants b/c I know on the 1/18 side some people were not that excited when 21st announced one. Oh, and I think the one fov just released is pretty damn cool - I would love to see it in good ole 1:18.
Awesome Post
JRS Exactly! My Lottery Fantasy about doing a startup and showing these guys how it's done! The Theater model would assuage many grievences. And it would result in more veriety in our selections.
Also, we've beaten around this bush some, shouldn't 21st and FOV be looking at varient posibilities when they FIRST develop a model. Example, say we develop a german armored car. We do an eight wheel. which one? Sdkfz231 or 234. We do the 234 of course because later we can do a Puma or the AT model with the PAK40. Is FOV concidering a PAK40 251HT? a T-34/76? 21st has been doing this with the PzkwIV chassis. But it needs to be expanded. If anyone decides to do a PROPER Sherman, first decide what model offers the most possibilities for later varients that would require little new casting but would be atractive to your customers.
Also when you put out crap, accept its crap and fix it! Fix the Shermans, the P-51s, the Panthers. We're getting better stuff lately, although the FOV Panther and the 21st Mustang both qualify as lately. I want to be a dedicated customer, but you put out crap and I wont buy it. Nothing on heaven or earth is going to make me buy the 21st Brunbar, JadgTiger, Sherman, or that FOV Panther and I will not buy multiples of anything!Provided its done well I'll snap up the M7.
David[/b]
Also, we've beaten around this bush some, shouldn't 21st and FOV be looking at varient posibilities when they FIRST develop a model. Example, say we develop a german armored car. We do an eight wheel. which one? Sdkfz231 or 234. We do the 234 of course because later we can do a Puma or the AT model with the PAK40. Is FOV concidering a PAK40 251HT? a T-34/76? 21st has been doing this with the PzkwIV chassis. But it needs to be expanded. If anyone decides to do a PROPER Sherman, first decide what model offers the most possibilities for later varients that would require little new casting but would be atractive to your customers.
Also when you put out crap, accept its crap and fix it! Fix the Shermans, the P-51s, the Panthers. We're getting better stuff lately, although the FOV Panther and the 21st Mustang both qualify as lately. I want to be a dedicated customer, but you put out crap and I wont buy it. Nothing on heaven or earth is going to make me buy the 21st Brunbar, JadgTiger, Sherman, or that FOV Panther and I will not buy multiples of anything!Provided its done well I'll snap up the M7.
David[/b]
I thought I'd check something...so I did a little research. Now understand that this deals with FoV only and even then just the 1/32 Enthusiast series.
The first Year (03) they made 9 new molds
2004- 8 new, 1 modified mold, and 7 repaints
2005- 2 new, 2 modified molds, 8 repaints, and 5 second repaints
2006- 3 new, 1 modified mold, 6 first, 7 second, and 8 third repaints
Please know that I did this loosely. I assume the first two years are start up. You could average then that each year gets 4 new types and alot of repaints. Note: I call a remold (ie. Hanomag- Kanonewagon) new.
The question is then do you think that is enough new types per year?
I'm ok with repaints as I'd like a whole Africa themed shelf.
Also (sorry it's getting long) I'm sure the companies have this same debate in the meeting rooms. Perhaps the M7 from 21C is a test for them.
Or the feild guns for FoV. Hope they do well. Just my thoughts on it.
-H
The first Year (03) they made 9 new molds
2004- 8 new, 1 modified mold, and 7 repaints
2005- 2 new, 2 modified molds, 8 repaints, and 5 second repaints
2006- 3 new, 1 modified mold, 6 first, 7 second, and 8 third repaints
Please know that I did this loosely. I assume the first two years are start up. You could average then that each year gets 4 new types and alot of repaints. Note: I call a remold (ie. Hanomag- Kanonewagon) new.
The question is then do you think that is enough new types per year?
I'm ok with repaints as I'd like a whole Africa themed shelf.
Also (sorry it's getting long) I'm sure the companies have this same debate in the meeting rooms. Perhaps the M7 from 21C is a test for them.
Or the feild guns for FoV. Hope they do well. Just my thoughts on it.
-H
Well, going back to the original subject, since 21st is sooo intent on making money (fancy that!) and German vehicles sell the best, then why haven't they produced a Hetzer, which can then be morphed into a PzKw 38(t) and a Marder III later? Plus these vehicles are relatively small = easy to package!
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DrMindbender
- Corporal
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Re: 1/32 armor
Really? Well i really like the 251, especially the varient with the pak 40 on top, nasty...they had 22-23 variants of the hanomag with a fair share of them probably not worth modelling but only modelling the 251/1 is just plain wrong.digger wrote:Dr., welcome.
Funny you ask for hanomag variants b/c I know on the 1/18 side some people were not that excited when 21st announced one. Oh, and I think the one fov just released is pretty damn cool - I would love to see it in good ole 1:18.
As for the 38(t) or 38(T) chassis-based afvs, i do agree that it should be modelled more (as someone modelled it already in the 1/32ish scale?) It was such an important part of the panzer divisions in the early years of the war. Along with panzer IIs which we also don't see often.It seems to me, talking more specifically about FOV, that we don't see enough "german" grey paints...i mean theres a few but i won't be satisfied until i get a grey Tiger, i just like the look based on fear more then on hiding/avoiding to get seen and shot at. To me that was just plain cool.
Matt
www.worldwariiattic.com
www.worldwariiattic.com
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Panzer_M
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why a PzKw III ausf D?? when the Ausf.F was more common with the same setup?
With a 38(t) chassis you have the following
PzKw 38(t) ausf A-G to choose from
Marder III w/ 7.62cm(r)
Marder III ausf H w/ 7.5cm KwK and bow MG37(t)(Czech machine gun used on the 35(t) and 38(t) and a Tripod mounted Heavy MG.
Marder III ausf M w/ 7.5
Flakpanzer 38(t) Gepard(heard this name used with it?) w/ 2cm Flak 38
Jagdpanzer 38(t) Hetzer
Jagdpanzer 38(t) w/ STARR mount
Bergepanzer 38(t) Recovery vehicle
Flammpanzer 38(t) Flamethrower tank
edit: also the Recon version(don't remember the mark for the vehicle) that had the turret of a 234/1 w/2cmL55 and a co-ax MG.
Well that's ten types MIN you could do with just the chassis of the 38(t)
With a 38(t) chassis you have the following
PzKw 38(t) ausf A-G to choose from
Marder III w/ 7.62cm(r)
Marder III ausf H w/ 7.5cm KwK and bow MG37(t)(Czech machine gun used on the 35(t) and 38(t) and a Tripod mounted Heavy MG.
Marder III ausf M w/ 7.5
Flakpanzer 38(t) Gepard(heard this name used with it?) w/ 2cm Flak 38
Jagdpanzer 38(t) Hetzer
Jagdpanzer 38(t) w/ STARR mount
Bergepanzer 38(t) Recovery vehicle
Flammpanzer 38(t) Flamethrower tank
edit: also the Recon version(don't remember the mark for the vehicle) that had the turret of a 234/1 w/2cmL55 and a co-ax MG.
Well that's ten types MIN you could do with just the chassis of the 38(t)