WAIT AND SEE... WAIT AND SEE !!!!!!!!!

[digger]

Corey, I think you are really off here - there is only the 21st 109, and there is only one Spitfire, the 21st Spit. How in the world could you have a WWII AC line without the most famous german fighter and most famous RAF fighter? Because they were done in different scales before? Everything has been done in some scale or another, but who cares if you collect 1:18? Should there be no 1:18 Shermans b/c there have been a thousand other small scale Shermans? No Tigers?

We all know why we have multiple Mustangs and Corsairs, but I think multiple Zeros was an accident - not an example of companies stuck on the same planes. Afterall, it took 5 years to get the Zero.

If FW-190s are clogging the shelves I think we really need to get realistic when we suggest more obscure stuff. And they released all the paint schemes at once - the way you like it as per your earlier post - and they got burned.

[Coreyeagle48]

Digger,

I understand why 21st made a BF-109, I get that, in order to have the series they needed that. That is not what I am talking about at all. My concern is that multiple companies that produce different scales of aircraft are all doing the same ones. That is my problem. Especially when companies only produce the big four WWII aircraft then don't pursue a line any further.

I can only have one of each different airplane, whatever the scale, due to display room purposes. The thing that kind of burns me is that I get excited for new models, but then find out they are the same plane over and over again such as a P-51 from a different company, it's just like "ugh". It would be nice if when companies do the big four first, so they sell airplanes, they produce one very obscure airplane as well, or something new and different. It would be nice for people who already have the big four airplanes and would like to add something a little unique to their collection.

Repaints are fine too, and they do help to sell product. However I think lately it has been repeating itself a little bit. I'd personally at this stage in time rather see the Avenger or the F-86 or an A-10 rather than a retooled P-51. I never understood that, if you knew you could make the airplane better in the first place, why didn't you just do it the first time. I mean seriously what happened there was BBI's came out and 21st saw what a piece of junk there first variation was. I just think the whole retooling money could have been better spent developing a new airplane.

The distrubution thing has got to be solved too, because it is ridculous. Touring Wallys in my area has turned up airplanes recently, but the Night Fighter ME-109. How long ago was that out??? It's just crazy that some stores are not seeing the stuff. I thought part of selling at Walmart was that all stores had to carry it, or were going too. I saw a Sky Captian P-40 at another store! It's odd this stuff takes so long to show up and yet some people see it immediately. That I do not get. I do mostly online buying anyway anymore.

Here is hoping we see some new airplanes soon!

[DocTodd]

It does seem like the same core planes get produced no matter what scale or era. It's either the same 4 WWII birds or if talking modern the F-15, F-16 & F-18 which are cool but after producing them it would be nice to see some more obscure planes or even mainstream foreign planes like the Mig 29 for example. Don't get me wrong as I like all planes but I think it would spice up the hobby if a few companies would produce some different planes. Look at IXO's Typhoon it sold out rather quickly. Perhaps we will see some of this in the future if not in 1:18 then possibly 1:32. The Macchi is a step in that direction. Another example of retooling and improving items can be found in the Star Wars line. Looking at the 1995 items compared to today the old stuff looks like crap compared with the newer figures and associated items. So this is similar to 21st's 1st P-51 to the anticipated new one.
Technology and techniques allow for more accuracy and more detail on newer items which is a great sign for the future of our hobby. My 2 cents,
Todd

[p51]

I'm surprised we haven't seen more of the F-22A Raptor. Granted, it's new... I'm waiting for it to start really being produced. Most things out there are the YF-22, which is heavily different than the F-22A. SO I wouldn't say all the US mainstream aircraft are finished. Plus, you have things like the B-2, F-117, A-10 (which, I think if it ever came out, would put the hunger strikes guys into catatonic shock) and many more in many scales. If anything, WW2 is really over produced compared to modern aircraft.

But let me digress, I'm a huge WW2 nut and WW2 aviation historian as much as possible. So I love the fact that a Mustang is produced all over. I love to see all the different schemes and scales.

There's one point here that I didn't mention much... but it holds the most true I think of everything said here and is one point we all need to look at. Those who flew these aircraft will not be with us for very long. Day by day we lose so many veterans it's unbelievable. In my lifetime, I know I will see the very last World War 2 veteran pass away, and that really scares me for the future of these aircraft that sit in museums and perform at airshows. What's going to keep them alive when those who flew them are not around to inspire?

That's where these toys come in. I can't tell you guys how excited the Planes of Fame Museum is to see so many accurate and detailed toys out there available to the younger generations. If you get a 1:18 P-51 Mustang at a very young age, while you may not know what it is... you'll have grown up with it. I wish we had this level of detail in aircraft and accurateness when I was 10 or 11. It makes me think of the little kid in the great movie 'Empire of the Sun'... and his wonder and love of aircraft, especially the Mustang. That's what we need to ensure in this day in age to keep these wonderful aircraft alive for all the future. From that point... I say keep producing the Mustangs! Keep bringing out the Corsairs! Make them more and more detailed, give them more little features that kids can play with. Because even if it just seems like a neat feature to us... having folding wings will allow kids to learn about carriers in World War 2 and how aircraft were stored. Remember, all it takes is one thing to get them interested, and they can be hooked for life.

I think that's a point all of us should really consider

[Coreyeagle48]

P51,

I agree with you on that one there with the WWII guys disappearing and being fewer and far between. I too just worry about the future and history in general when these guys pass away because I wonder if history will be retaught after they pass on with a more "nicer" view. To me personally, the contribution these men and women made was unreal, both on the fronts and at home. It is an important era that we not forget.

At the same time, I really hope the WWII veterans continue to behave themselves. I remember a few years ago during the Reading World War II Weekend that Robert Morgan acted kind of outrageous there to the museum staff and some of the attendees of the show. I think personally if he wanted to act that way he should have stayed home. I think at the time his health was failing and he was probably tired and didn't want to make a public appearence. I know though it put a lot of people off when that happened. I think it is important to remember too to give these guys there space too. Many of them are on medications and have health problems and it is important we not ask too much of them. I worry so much about some of them that come to the Reading show because usually in PA that is our first really hot weekend. But it is great to see them come out and have a good time.

P51 has a point on the planes. I frequently pick up that set of 12 airplanes they have that are simple diecasts and put them in the kids prize box at school. One of my students has been picking one out everytime he gets the chance. I also know the students really enjoy the airplanes hanging in my room at school. I picked my WWI large scales as they are a little more interesting I felt to the students. But I do not have a problem with more toy Mustangs and Corsairs being made, though it brings up the old question are the big planes we love toys, models or collectors pieces. I do feel some things have been way overproduced though. But that is my opinion.

I think the F-22 is coming. I saw smaller diecasts of it and isn't AirPower doing a model too of the F-22. I believe there was an Ertl Force One of that airplane too. This is a good discussion

[Morian Miner]

Just a thought on companies cooperating. Can you imagine all the execs from the companies sitting in one room saying "okay, the A-10, who gets to build that one? ME!ME!ME!ME!ME!ME!ME!" I can kinda see why none of the companies would even want to try it. Middle East peace might be easier to achieve.

As for future aircraft, I'm thinking it would be best not to know in advance any more. For me, I'm dying for the MiG-15. Well, its supposidely coming, but when? So, its a waiting game while 21C takes in through the production process. All I want is to hear "Hey, company X has a new plane/tank/figure, its on the boat, expect it in two months". That's my gripe. We hear about these things for months and years in advance, yet you hear nothing until BOOM someone happened across them at their local store.

[immeww2]

We hear about these things for months and years in advance, yet you hear nothing until BOOM someone happened across them at their local store.

I realize it's not the best way to discover when new items are available but it is kinda exciting to hear that something new is out and then the frantic search begins to try and track them down. IMO it's a difficult process when the distribution of the items isn't what it's supposed to be, but I've taken the position that until there is a better process to find out and purchase these new items, might as well go along and play the game or else stand aside and be left with nothing.

[Morian Miner]

but I've taken the position that until there is a better process to find out and purchase these new items, might as well go along and play the game or else stand aside and be left with nothing.

then I'd rather be left with nothing!!! Just kidding.

But while on the topic, what are we waiting for new this year (not counting 21C repaints)? From what I remember:

BBi Zero repaint
Admiral F86
21C redone Mustang, Avenger, Collector's Corsair, F86, MiG15.

Anything I'm missing?

[aferguson]

Mike wrote:

"for Morian Miner

If you are a member of the bbi club ( free membership)you will get a Hot News release advising of all new items prior to them being on the shelf. We release Hot News on all new items the day we ship"

[WGP Klaus]

Keep in mind it's not up to us. It's the company. They decide what they want to do. It's been like that for years. Every toy company out there has spells like with the 1:18 lines. We should be greatful and not complaining all the time. They won't make aircraft just because one or two people want it made. Sometimes things can influience what they may do, but it's always up to the company. NOT us. And timeframes are again not our timeframes. We can't expect items to just come out whenever we feel like there's a drought or get bored. It doesn't work that way.

I've gotten quite tired of people complaining. Furthermore... the A-10 has never been confirmed anywhere. Prototype or not, 21st has not expressed interest right now. I know something like that can be frustrating because it's favorite aircraft of many... but they know what sells and what doesn't sell better than any of us, and they are the ones who get to decide what to make next.

Threads like this only continue to hurt the companies and get them frustrated. They don't do ANY good whatsoever and in turn cause frustration. Everyone on this board could start a thread complaining about a lack of a certain vehicle/aircraft they may like. But it won't change anything as it really shouldn't. Because if these companies were to just produce what the people posted they want... they wouldn't be able to survive. Just because you might want it doesn't mean they'll be able to sell 10,000 of them around the nation.

Folks have a right to complain, and companies count on that, for the most part, it's a productive process. I certainly beg to differ, on one hand you say it does no good to complain, yet in the next paragraph you're stating it frustrates the companies? which is it? I'm with many others, I get ticked whern a company makes a claim as to a release date or pending release, then we never hear another word out of them. Then out of the blue, amazingly, a representative of Company X joins a bulletin board such as this, giving out information, only again to see dates fall to the wayside time and time again. I used to be of the mindset that complaining was counter productive, and even when I was younger would get angry with my Mother and Grandmother when they'd bitch up a storm about whatever, thinking all that did was hinder the service, well I came to learn with age, it actually helps. We're the "target audience" if you will, and if we're dishing out the $$$, we've got every right to complain, regardless of what some think. Granted, I've learned (again, with age) not to hold my breath and take everything claimed with a grain a salt, but I'm certainly sympathetic to those customers/potential customers, and honestly feel that if enough folks spoke up, that perhaps we'd see results faster, or at the very least, companies not throwing out bogus info, rather opting for the old line "It will be released when it's ready to be released" which is what would please me to no end, being honest!

My $0.02 and worth every damn penny

[digger]

Folks have a right to complain, and companies count on that, for the most part, it's a productive process.

Well, Mike is "shaking his head" at you in the from the source thread so if you think the complaining is endearing perhaps he will comment further.

I do take issue with someone who said they were surprised by all the responses to the original post got - don't be. 1500 views in a week is no accident - this is obviously something that people feel strongly about one way or another, and the dispute will likely live on after this thread. Some say "tell me nothing," others say "tell me whats on the horizon," and others say whatever suits them at the time.

[Coreyeagle48]

Klaus,

I am totally with you on what you said there regarding people complaining and that it benefits a company rather than hurts them. I however say they have to be productive complaints though rather than just jabs at someone. For example, saying there is a distrubution problem at Walmart with 21st Century toys is an understatement and a vaild complaint to the 21st company. I too think they know there is a problem and sometimes the only way to fix things is to keep telling them about the problem. On the other hand complaining about the ME-109 simply because you don't like a German war toy or because it has a paint scheme you don't like certainly is a childish complaint.

I am under the opinion that complaining can help these companies get their act together. I am with Klaus on the fact I get tired of the big guys coming on here, registering and promising stuff that never has come out or gets delayed or whatever. I think it is great that they come here and share their viewpoints and I enjoy their input. However, don't make a promise or claim something if there is a shred of doubt that it won't be true. All you do then is anger the collectors and your fan base.

I often thought collectors in this hobby were a little passive. They seem to be "very understanding" to delays and production problems. I feel this is because it is a limited market and not many companies make these kinds of toys. But it personally bothers me because I see things from other companies come out when promised and get to the stores on time. There is really no excuse for the lateness. And if you feel the model will be delayed, hold off setting a release date until you know your problems are worked out and you have the aircraft in production and ready to go. It is a very simple concept.

That being said I would like to see some more push by us to get these things moving. I think people feel if we push, we will stop them from making it or something like that. That won't happen guys, it just won't. Not when a company has invested millions of dollars into a product. It is our job to demand good quality products in a timely manner, we are consumers and after all it is our money we are spending and giving to them.

[lightning2000]

Hi All,
Interesting discussion once again and I thought I'd weigh in with a few comments.

In regards to corporate announcements, there are literally dozens of reasons why a company might not come out with a product in a timely manner, especially when new competitors consistently enter the market. Here's one.

Most of the manufacturers are still American-based although some, such as Dragon and Unimax are headquartered in China. What this means is that most American companies do not own the factories in China -- they merely work out a production schedule with a particular group of factories. Typically a Chinese-owned factory is interested in producing the largest volume item(s) first and would rather put smaller runs on the back burner when there is some down time in their schedule (try comparing Star Wars toys which are produced in the millions versus a 1:18 scale Corsair that might number several thousand, tops). Keep in mind too that every time they change the production run, their workers have to be re-trained, new parts/paints have to be warehoused, shipping schedules have to be set, quality control issues have to be addressed, and so on. This can have a dramatic effect on a modelmaker like a 21st Century Toys, who must take steps to re-dress a situation as best they can given the strains put upon them. If one part is late to arrive at the factory, the factory will once again put it on the back burner in favor of something that may be ready to be made. I'm not trying to make excuses for any manufacturer, but the fact remains that a great many things happen behind the scenes which can have an adverse effect on why you may see constant delays in the retail channel.

As for "vapor" ware, this is nothing new. Companies might announce a product, see that a competitor is coming out with a similar item, then decide to put it on the back burner until the dust settles. We're talking about spending millions of dollars at the manufacturer's end, so this isnt exactly foolheartiness, even if it does disappoint some of their collectors.

In regard to re-issues, repaints, or whatever else you want to call them, this occurs in virtually every industry, not just ours. Do you think Toyota retools the Camry every year? No, they make subtle changes to an existing production run then make dramatic changes every five years or so to re-address their market niche. There is a huge cost associated with producing anything these days, which is why manufacturers attempt to recoup their cost by offering multiple schemes of an existing tooling. I cant say I blame them although I understand where everyone here is coming from. I've often wondered how many Ferdinands Dragon plans on producing considering how many other vehicles need to be replicated.

Finally, the distribution issue. When it comes to big box discount chains, toys usually take a backseat to other sundry items during the January-October timeframe. Once Xmas rolls around, they again get a priority nod. So, if a store manager has an open to buy of say $5 million dollars, s/he is more likely to bring in regular merchandise during the year than toys. Sure, the toy department will get a smattering of deliveries over the course of the year, but just enough to keep them in business and make it look like the aisles are full. Heck, in some stores, toy departments shrink in size during the regular portion of the sales season, so they can sell seasonal merchandise or some other commodities.

Anyway, just my two pesos on the subject...

Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.bigstep.com

[p51]

I certainly beg to differ, on one hand you say it does no good to complain, yet in the next paragraph you're stating it frustrates the companies? which is it?

Both! They are bombarded with complaints and 'we have too many of these and not enough of these'. But a lot of times they get frustrated because the collectors often times don't know what goes into the way these companies work and how the selection is made.

We're the "target audience" if you will, and if we're dishing out the $$$, we've got every right to complain, regardless of what some think.

We are not technically the full target audience, nor are we the biggest chunk of change for them. It's been stated on here MANY times that the impulse buyers are the #1 source. And what will they pick up... a well known F4U Corsair/P-51D Mustang or a lesser known ME-163 or ME-262? They're going to pick the Mustang or Corsair because it's the ones they know, even if just barely.

companies not throwing out bogus info, rather opting for the old line "It will be released when it's ready to be released" which is what would please me to no end, being honest!

You think this is all bogus info? That they throw out these estimated dates just to throw us off? They try and hit those dates, but the toy industry and the level of detail that we have 'complained about' has forced them to continually make changes to get it right. Delays happen, it's not bogus information. And that's the plain truth. We've expected more and more details out of these aircraft, and yes, I'm sure 'complaints' have directly helped up the detail on these aircraft. But as a result, it causes the companies to have to take more time, and because many of the companies, as digger stated, have factories in China... when something is wrong it takes a while to get it fixed. It's not like going into the backroom and making a quick change. You have to explain the problem, make sure thye understand, have the change made, get a sample, make sure the sample it okay, then hopefully they got it to how you invisioned it.

And I never said that people should not complain... I've been stating that support goes a lot further than complaints.

[lightning2000]

We are not technically the full target audience, nor are we the biggest chunk of change for them. It's been stated on here MANY times that the impulse buyers are the #1 source. And what will they pick up... a well known F4U Corsair/P-51D Mustang or a lesser known ME-163 or ME-262? They're going to pick the Mustang or Corsair because it's the ones they know, even if just barely.

You're absolutely correct. While the manufacturers would love to address everyone's concerns here, the fact of the matter is that the collectors here represent a fraction of their overall selling audience. It reminds me of when I was in the gaming industry.

When flight simulations first came along for the PC, everyone loved them save a small, vociferous audience. These people wanted more realism, greater diversity of aircraft, cloud layers, blah, blah, blah. Never mind the greater share of the audience that simply loved the game for what it was -- a means of blowing up things so they could get away from the drudgery in their life. Well, as the years passed by, and game developers continued to listen to their hard-core audience, what developed was great games that the layperson couldnt enjoy anymore due to the steep learning curve. So, instead of selling hundreds of thousands of units of their flight sims, they were barely breaking even. As a result, game publishers decided that the end had come for flight sims and nobody wanted to spend the money to make them viable once again.

Moral of the story? Sometimes you just cant please everyone. You can certainly do your best and offer the highest quality product at a competitive price but in the end you still have to make enough money to pay your bills and remain viable. This can only be achieved by appealing to the masses, and so manufacturers, with the aid of their retail network, try to hit the sweetspot by delivering the same products time and again until someone else comes along to alter the paradigm.

Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.bigstep.com

[aferguson]

Mike wrote:

"for digger :

Are you sure you would like me to "comment further"?"

[dcway]

Hi All
Well i guess i opened up a can of worms!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm glad it was'nt
in vain!!! I've been reading all the replys !! what a mixed bag...
I'm glag more people feel like me!!! I'm not the type of person who complains allot only when things really bug me. Also i don't expect planes to be built just because i and we say it should be built. i know alot needs to be considered. to all of you who say complaining only hurts the business thats not true !!!! i've see many good things come out of construtive criticism.. It's just some people can't take it .....
Talk to you later. I'll keep reading the feedbacks... keep up the good work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dana

[WGP Klaus]

I certainly beg to differ, on one hand you say it does no good to complain, yet in the next paragraph you're stating it frustrates the companies? which is it?

Both! They are bombarded with complaints and 'we have too many of these and not enough of these'. But a lot of times they get frustrated because the collectors often times don't know what goes into the way these companies work and how the selection is made.

We're the "target audience" if you will, and if we're dishing out the $$$, we've got every right to complain, regardless of what some think.

We are not technically the full target audience, nor are we the biggest chunk of change for them. It's been stated on here MANY times that the impulse buyers are the #1 source. And what will they pick up... a well known F4U Corsair/P-51D Mustang or a lesser known ME-163 or ME-262? They're going to pick the Mustang or Corsair because it's the ones they know, even if just barely.

companies not throwing out bogus info, rather opting for the old line "It will be released when it's ready to be released" which is what would please me to no end, being honest!

You think this is all bogus info? That they throw out these estimated dates just to throw us off? They try and hit those dates, but the toy industry and the level of detail that we have 'complained about' has forced them to continually make changes to get it right. Delays happen, it's not bogus information. And that's the plain truth. We've expected more and more details out of these aircraft, and yes, I'm sure 'complaints' have directly helped up the detail on these aircraft. But as a result, it causes the companies to have to take more time, and because many of the companies, as digger stated, have factories in China... when something is wrong it takes a while to get it fixed. It's not like going into the backroom and making a quick change. You have to explain the problem, make sure thye understand, have the change made, get a sample, make sure the sample it okay, then hopefully they got it to how you invisioned it.

And I never said that people should not complain... I've been stating that support goes a lot further than complaints.

ok, I should have gone a bit deeper when I used the whole "Target Audience" which I had meant the consumer, those who purchase the 1:18, not restricted to board members, but the consumer in general.

In regards to dates and such, never said it was bogus, simply stated that if their throwing dates out, in hopes of getting product out, knowing full well the actual street date will likely be later, to me is foolish. I can understand where some companies are able to meet target dates, and some are not. As mentioned previously, we're dealing with vendors in Asia and many of us are familiar with shipping procedures, and how long it can take for items coming into the North American market place to clear customs, then make it to dist. end of things. I like pretty much everyone else do however, get tired of hearing " you'll see it before Christmas 2005 blah blah" and the like, instead of reps simply stating "We hope to have our product to the shelves sometime in the first, second, third or fourth quarter of this year, and in some instances (if my failing memory serves me correct ) we've even heard specific dates, which have fallen by the wayside time and time again.

Again, I'm a patient individual, but I can certainly see when someone finds it necessary to "vent" as I believe, provided it's more than bickering, it can be productive.

[tiger1]

Hi Guy`s-What i don`t understand is when 21st decided to make a new
mold for the p-51 they opted for the D model instead of making an AorB.
and for a relatively small investment they could have made two different
cockpit hoods(one straight framed,and one blown malcolm hood)thus making more variety for future repaints,and sales.
So BBI -go ahead and make an fw 190,but make sure it is an A model(short nose)and the same goes for the p-40 - let this be an F model-same types as 21st but different versions,and they still compete for the same customers.
another thing is why haven`t the Hurricane been built?A relatively simple
aircraft, with the salespotential at least as big as the Avenger???finally to all manufacturers- please give us soft rubber tires,this improves the models tremendously(i have modified my spit,p-47 and are in progress
with the p-38)
And i would love to have a GMC tanker......

[tko211]

Personally I think 21st's decision to do the D model P-51 is good call. The P-51D is by far one of the best long term selling airplanes of all time!

All the research in model sales, memorbilia, paintings, etc. shows that the P-51D out sells everything. So if I were 21st I would not just roll over and let other companies have free reign on this model. You just can't be in the war toy inductry and not have a good P-51D in the stable. As for B's or C's... who says 21st isn't already 3 steps ahead of the pack?

Corsairs are in a similar boat. Even though people now have a choice on where to get a corsair, it has not hurt Bunker Hill sales one little bit. People just love these kinds of planes. And there are sooo many people out there that are seeing this stuff for the very first time out there. I had an e-mail just the other day where a customer bought his very first 1:18 scale airplane... A Bunker Hill Corsair!
It really is amazing that this hobby just keeps getting better and better.

21st isn't going away and there are still many many good years ahead of us. 21st is keeping a list pretty close to the vest on new product development. And I think they are going to do what they are going to do. They honestly just don't concern themselves with what others are doing.

By all counts it has served them well. They continue to make the largest% of the war toys offered today, and roll out some pretty crazy stuff from time to time like the F-104, and the new Macchi. But in a way that is what I really like about them!
They just make cool stuff... and lots of it!

just my 10 cents... sorry for the long read.
But I agree! I also want a B model mustang.

[Quixote511]

AMEN
Aaron

[MG-42]

I,...also agree,......Amen,.. to that as well.

[Black_Dragon_One]

I think all three companies should produce one of the world most abundent item..

yes my friend "THE ROCK"

can you think of all the repaint and no retooling needed

[MG-42]

HAHAHAHAHA !! ...........Are you kidding ? .......The Rock ? ........Nah,...ahhhh ! .........Nope,..they'll never do it.

[MightyMustang]

I agree with some of the posts that 21st should have done a B model Mustang instead of a D but hey that was their choice. Who knows a B model Mustang may be right around the corner as we speak? I dont care if its 21st that produces it or BBI I would just like to see one get done. I would also like to see a Hellcat get done in 1/18th scale but so far there has been no word of it so "I'll wait and see".

As for complaints? I have none except the fact that I just wish they would get their butt in gear and bring out the Avenger because this delay thing is getting upsetting. But in the end 21st just wants to bring out the best and in the Avenger I think they will. Repaints? Ya they get tiring to some but not to me but I wish BBI would do more for their Corsair and Mustang series. Who knows maybe they will?


I say to both companies that they are doing and excellent job and keep rolling out the 1/18th planes with more detail ect.


Just my thoughts.