WAIT AND SEE... WAIT AND SEE !!!!!!!!!

[MG-42]

YEAH,...THANKS JASON,...for setting the record straight !

[JohnLumley]

I hope Admiral does well.

I personally got a kick from the… "I am in a good mood and the next release is one of the planes listed below".

What a great alternative to the standard “wait & see” answer.

Excited!

[holensock]

After reading my earlier post here, I guess what I'm trying to say is that if both companies wanna do the 'Wait and See' game...I'll DO IT! Then I'll GO OUT AND BUY!!!!
So if 21C and bbi are reading all these posts, hopefully they'll come to the conclusion that thru some of this frustration, we're a great group of collectors who are HUNGRY for MORE 1:18!!!!

[Jolly Roger]

I hope Admiral does well.

I personally got a kick from the… "I am in a good mood and the next release is one of the planes listed below".

What a great alternative to the standard “wait & see” answer.

Excited!

yep... Jason is probably making BBI and or 21st Swear..

" oh %^&* , we are making one of thoose... crap .. ok heres the plan we wont do any of them.."

[Tinman]

I kind of like the surprises, actually. Makes life interesting.

[Charlemagne]

I for one am thankful for everything 21C, BBI, and Admiral does and is trying to do. Many of you like me can remember going to TRU and seeing the 109 and P-51 from 21C for the first time. What an awesome feeling that was and it started something fantastic. Because of that initial success the 1:18 hobby has blossomed nicely. Sure, we hit dry spells and we all get frustrated but imagine a world without it. Just remember, as long as these companies exist and prosper there will always be something "new" around the corner even though we don't know exactly when and what but it sure as heck beats not having anything to look forward too at all.

[DocTodd]

I also want to say Thank you to Jason and the other toy companies for responding to our questions. We may not be the most patient group but we are very interested in what you have to say-so keep on making those great planes- Oh yeah and an occasional piece of armor for Three Tough Trucks!
Todd

[Jericoeagle1]

Then perhaps it would be wiser to ask that companies not give hints about upcoming releases that are speculative. Only speak of them when a firm "On the water" date is give. Questions can be still taken about products available and the companies status. Personally I'd be happy not to know about a product until its here.

[tko211]

The demand and hunger for new products from collectors has never been in question. I am first and foremost a fan myself, and I ALWAYS want something new to come out. As mentioned above, repaints are VITAL to the success and acceptable pricepoint of any product. To quote a conversation I had with 21st Century Toys CEO... "the military toy business in not for the faint of heart" Meaning, the up front invenstment and risk on any model is huge!

As far as seeing "prospective prototypes" at ToyFair goes, Digger is correct. It is an industy show where toy companies show off potential products with hopes that buyers will find it suitable and cheap enough to order a bunch. Believe me, there are more toys out there than there is available shelf space! So a majority gets cut and people go home with empty pockets. For some it is a bit like loosing everything in the stockmarket. You plan you research, you make your investment anc cross your fingers you are right. Speculation investment are spooky my friends.

Obviously I am at a unique advantage as a collector to see how these companies operate and to whitness the challenges that they face. I have been on the show floor at ToyFair. All I can say is that I have a deeper respect for what it takes to make it all work. And it is unfortunate that setbacks occur, and that some prototypes might not ever see final final production. But it is all part of the harsh reality.

21st Century Toys is always looking for win win opportunities whenever it evaluates new product development. The trick is to align the wants and desires of both the mass retailers (who have to buy it before we ever do) and wants and desires of the collectors. Sometimes strange things like size, cost, shelfspace, or a toy buyer in a bad mood can effect the final product.

Like I said... I have a lot of respect for those people brave enough to make a business out of this hobby!

[Teamski]

I'm quite late in entering this discussion, but I have to back the "open production" camp in the release of new aircraft. Much of this has already been aired, I know, but here goes.

The duplication of effort on certain aircraft is a direct result of competition between companies. We all know that Admiral worked on the F-86 without knowing whether or not 21st was doing theirs. Now we have yet another duplicate aircraft. I find it hard not to get frustrated with just how secretive the 1:18 manufacturers are when it results in stunted development of our hobby. Now who the hell is going to do the A-10?? You know that somebody has to have it in their development schedule, but who? And, are they holding off in fear of duplication.

Each of the 3 companies have a share in our collecting market. They must realize that every collector has a limited amount of $$$ they can spend on aircraft. I, being a long-time collector in this scale, am VERY reluctant to go out and get 2 different maker's F-86's knowing that there are other aircraft to be bought in the future. Now who is going to loose out?? Well, I ordered mine from Admiral (BCT). Quite silly, really.

Now, I really believe that the big 3 need to get together and hash out who is doing what. Right now as it sits, they are killing eachother financially over duplication and confusion. I know my $$$ only go so far, so variety is crucial in getting my money. I am no longer going out and blowing all the cash on everything I see. SO, if bbi does the A-10, 21st the Avenger and Admiral maybe a Mosquito, I will be there! I won't if 21st and bbi kicks out A-10s and Admiral follows up with a Zero!!

It takes big $$$ to tool and produce these aircraft. Be smart about it and produce what will sell!!


-Ski

[STUKA]

what I said

[JimBob55]

I appreciate the response and the discussion.

I know I keep bringing up my favorite, the Dauntless. There are others who keep pushing their favorites, for very good reasons. But as a customer, I realize that I will only see something that has made it through much thought and market research. So be it; I love having (now) three companies producing great products and am happy with what they can produce.

JimBob

[aferguson]

To date in my discussions with both Mike and Jason neither has seemed very interested in the 'cooperative effort' idea. It may seem logical to us but to those involved in the production, the idea is pretty much dismissed. They both acknowledge that it is a good idea but then tell me it's not practical.

What the exact reasons are i'm not sure...there is a bit of vagueness in the responses i have gotten but what does come through clearly is the lack of enthusiasm for the idea.

Here is a snipit of an email i sent to Jason, which pretty much says what Ski has said above:

"You said yourself that if you knew back in '04 that 21c was going to make an F-86, AT probably wouldn't have...it's because you DIDN'T know that you made it....so had 21c announced their intention longer ago than they did everyone might be better off. In this case no duplication of product, which will mean the two companies would not have to share the available market for the F-86 and the collector probably would have had 2 different models coming out in the next short while instead of two F-86's.

The competition would still drive better product quality because if company X offers more working features then company Y will feel they need to as well.....but those opening features would be on two entirely different subjects.

So, it seems to me that, in this case, by keeping their mouths shut that 21c hurt themselves, not helped themselves. Had they announced it long ago, then AT doesn't go ahead with their F-86 but pursues another project instead. So 21c is the first (and probably only) to come out with a Sabre and reaps all the sales. But because they didn't announce it, AT beat them to the punch, without even knowing that's what they were doing.. So by keeping quiet 21c actually caused the problem they were trying to avoid. Sort of a self fulfilling prophecy.

I can see this scenario occuring time and time again, amidst all the silence. This time 21c gets 'burned' a bit, next time AT, then BBI etc.

If intentions were announced well in advance then i feel that all three companies would be better off and the collectors as well."



As eloquent as my argument was (lol) it didn't turn on any lightbulbs at AT. So there is some reason that this is not an exciting idea to the makers of these 1/18 scale products

I suspect it boils down to the fact that business, all business, can be a cutthroat affair and no one will trust the other to do what they may initially agree to do. Since there is no way of policing a cooperative effort, nor punishing offenders, i don't believe anyone wants to take the risk on getting 'stabbed in the back' as it were.....the consequences could be financially ruinous.

[Teamski]

Well stated Andrew. The only saving grace to 21st is the Walmart deal. That alone will save their F-86 from failure.

There seems to be way too many business decisions based on ego and not on logical business strategy. If there was more of an objective view of the whole situation, we would of been far better off and the companies in question would be far better situated financially. Just my 2 cents worth. It's their capital at work, not mine.

-Ski

[digger]

So, it seems to me that, in this case, by keeping their mouths shut that 21c hurt themselves, not helped themselves. Had they announced it long ago, then AT doesn't go ahead with their F-86 but pursues another project instead. So 21c is the first (and probably only) to come out with a Sabre and reaps all the sales. But because they didn't announce it, AT beat them to the punch, without even knowing that's what they were doing.. So by keeping quiet 21c actually caused the problem they were trying to avoid. Sort of a self fulfilling prophecy.

You're presuming the F-86 was a go at 21C in October 2004...Jason didn't know of it then safe to say we didn't either - suggesting it was not planned at the time. More likely AT beat 21C to the F-86 altogether according to Jason's timeline. In that case should AT have announced their intention to save other companies the trouble? Likely not. So AT could get beaten to the punch by a bigger company? Likely not.

[holensock]

Wow, seems that every post here has these companies competing with each other over 'aircraft'. We already know 21C LOVES to make aircraft and tanks, maybe the other companies could concentrate more on other armor and vehicles...and GROUND TROOPS! There's so much armor that hasn't been touched yet! The armor and troop market is still WIDE OPEN!

[lightning2000]

Hi All,
There's a whole list of reasons why manufacturers arent obligated to work in close cooperation with one another. For starters, there's the question of price fixing, which is illegal in the US. You're assuming that just because two manufacturers want to work together to avoid redundancy, that they'll offer their product at a competitive price. If they know another manufacturer wont enter the market to produce the same product, then they can set the price of the item at whatever they wish. How would you like light bulbs from only one company?

Secondly, just because two companies agree to develop a mutually exclusive production schedule, that a third or a fourth company wont enter the fray to produce the same bird?

Also, what happens if one of the companies gets the product wrong? Does that mean the other company cant offer a higher quality product if the market pressures to produce the plane still exists? Our economy was founded on the free-market capitalistic approach to satiating the public need. Somehow, I think this notion flies in the face of that very principle and opens up a can of worms that most manufacturers would rather not care to deal with...

Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.bigstep.com

[CW4USARMY]

maybe the other companies could concentrate more on other armor and vehicles...and GROUND TROOPS! There's so much armor that hasn't been touched yet! The armor and troop market is still WIDE OPEN!

AMEN!!!!

[tko211]

In a free enterprise market it is quite uncommon for companies to share notes. I frankly think it is unrealistic that the 3 companies would really desire to work together. The bottom line is that these companies are in business to move product and to put food on the table.

Being that these companies are using historic vehicles and wars to model products after it is to be expected that there will be overlap. Everyone is using the same list when they look at new product development. That said it doesn't go without saying that some companies perfer to re-do a product on purpose.

Look at it like this... If you are Ford and make cars, you may want to offer a wide seclection in your product offering to account for needs, price, and preference. So you make a sports car, a mini van, a truck, and so on.

Competion comes along, say Chevy... Do you really think they are going to say well all that has been done before so lets comepte head to head and make... skateboards???

Bottom line is EVERYONE wants to make a Mustang, a Corsair etc... Why? because thats what people want to buy. Its that simple. Us old timers will remember the old days of 1990's when 21st was the only game in town. It is becase of our interest as fans that demand has risen Thus new competion enters the fray and the hobby booms.

I am not upset over a wide selection of new produts, new paint schemes, or anything. I remeber the old days of 1 and only 1 1:18 scale plane being offered in a whole year!

In the end the business will do what they will do... sell product! I say have at it! Just because other companies have thrown their hat in the ring does not mean all the decisions change... Who knows what the future holds? It is always changing and always will.

just my 10 cents.

[eddie372]

Whatever happened to good ol'e industrial espionage?

[tmanthegreat]

Whatever happened to good ol'e industrial espionage?

Oh, that happens... Its called the BBI Corsair, the BBI Zero, the 21c P-47, the AT F-86, and alomst every product announced by one company and then showing up first with another.

Just kidding

[Coreyeagle48]

Hi Everyone

I must say I like how the Franklin Mint/Armour company handles the repaint situation with their models. Usually they release three or four schemes of an airplane at the same time then the next year do a few more different ones. It's nice because you can see the airplanes together and pick which airplane you really want. I personally do not have many of their models just a JU-52 and a DC-3 but I liked the fact they had five different selections and I could pick one.

I also like how other companies produce maybe five different models in a series, say modern, world war II or whatever, then come out with new stuff but maybe repaint one model. I just think this makes so much sense to do it this way, you sell more models and keep people interested. Look at McFarlane with their figures, look how many different series they have. Baseball, Hockey, Nascar, Matrix, and I even saw Corspe Bride figures. By expanding your line and having a better selection, I feel you push your product.

I personally have gotten out of collecting World War II airplanes for this reason. I have seen MILLONS of P-51's and Corsairs from so many companies I personally feel no company should be allowed to do any of these two airplanes for five years. It seems everyone wants to make the same thing and I think people in the store see this too. I think they look at these models and even though the colors are different say "That's the same plane, just a different color"

I have two Spad's in my collection and a friend who is not well versed in aviation history asked me why I have two of the same plane. I told him they are two different planes flown by two different pilots, his response "They look the same to me" It just shows your average public doesn't see any difference, despite the color differences we see and love.

I haven't gotten anything 1/18 in a long time, just a few figures, and the new models look great. I have to echo though what many people seem to have said, QUIT MAKING THE SAME THINGS. It is just a bit ridculous along with the repaints. It's neat to see the aircraft but like many people said, where do you put 10 P-51's in 1/18 scale.

I think the companies should take more risk and build more products. 21st continuing to repaint tells me they just want the quick buck, and aren't very willing at this point in time to take the risk. That is ok, but I wonder how much time they can afford to take just repainting their stuff. Especially with Admiral on the rollout and BBI seemingly stepping up their game a bit.

[p51]

I think the companies should take more risk and build more products. 21st continuing to repaint tells me they just want the quick buck, and aren't very willing at this point in time to take the risk. That is ok, but I wonder how much time they can afford to take just repainting their stuff. Especially with Admiral on the rollout and BBI seemingly stepping up their game a bit.

I wouldn't say they are all the same thing. Each time they are released by a different company, the quality of the aircraft and the features change. The new 21stC Mustang will have the most features of an Mustang to date.

And I don't know what you mean about 21st just making repaints. I seem to recall a F-104 series, BF-109 G-6 series, new Avenger Series, new molded Mustang (not just repaints) series, and many other upcoming aircraft that will be appearing. If anything, 21st leads the pack as far as bringing out new aircraft. Not to even mention the 1/32 series and the aircraft that have sprung from that in just one year's time. BBi's list of aircraft released in the last two years isn't as much.

[eddie372]

I truely believe that as long as there is sufficient demand for this type of product, someone will step up to supply it. If bad business decisions were to cause 21C, BBI and/or AT to go belly up, other companies will be more than willing to pick up the slack. It's just simple Capitalism-101.

It also occurs to me that these companies have only a passing and polite interest in what we have to say. The big talkers are comprehensive marketing research studies, some of which may include interviews with potential buyers. Market trends are the real drivers here, which certainly explains why we have Zeros, Corsairs and P-51s from at least two different manufacturers.

In marketing research these days, much attention is given to the Baby Boomer generation. This is so because of the affluence, relatively high purchasing power, and leasure time enjoyed by its large number of constituents.

There's also a great deal of nostalgia associated with that particular generation. Think retros in the car industry (Mini Cooper, Chevy wagon, Thunderbirds, etc.) and who are driving them, and you'll see what I mean. And how about movie remakes? And why is terrazzo making a comeback in newer, affluent neighborhood homes? To cater to the Baby-Boomers, that's why.

And so the story goes. We share a fascination for WW-II stories, books, movies and even airplane models, because tha't the stuff we grew up with. Vietnam era, Korean and modern aircraft will not even begin to compare with the current interest in anything WW-II. Not by a long shot. That's why we have two companies, and a potential third, giving us Second World War toys at a ratio of say, 20 to 1?

In chasing after our interests, we've been influencing our own grown up children, many of whom are now in their late 20s and 30s, in developing a healthy liking for the great and wonderful story that is WW-II. This explains why we have so many young guys in this forum, sharing our interest in this wonderful hobby of ours.

And that's my sermon for today. Good day to all.
Ed

[Coreyeagle48]

P,

Even though it is made by a different aircraft and sometimes the new airplanes have new features, they are the same model of the same airplane. There is really no getting around that part of the equation.

My point is that I would like a varied collection of aircraft. I am just a little bored with seeing company after company do the same four airplanes it seems (Bf109, 51, Zero, Spit) and if we get lucky we get a Corsair as well. I would just like to see a company produce some of the more obsure airplanes and take the risk and do it. I think there is a huge market for it because of the simple fact that these companies seem to want to do the same things and same items, sometimes even in the same paint schemes. A applaud Admiral for bringing out an F-86 and 21st for bringing out a Starfighter. But most of the aircraft done by 21st had been done by earlier companies in other scales.

When you do not have room like I do, it becomes hard to just get one of every aircraft. That is why I have stuck to a rule of one type of airplane such as only one P-51 or one P-47. I have a few doubles of World War I planes because it is my favorite era and some of the models were grandpa's and I will never give those up, but usually it is one airplane of each type. Kind of like a museum I guess.

I'm not complaining at all, because these companies are basically free to do with as they wish and do whatever their marketing guys tell them to do. I personally feel some of them though would have more success exploring the idea of more new products instead of rehashing the old ones.

Corey