WAIT AND SEE... WAIT AND SEE !!!!!!!!!

[dcway]

I don't know about you guys but i'm getting real tired to this wait and see
******* !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How many more times are we going to hear this????? It would be nice tto get a straight answer wonce in awhile //
I've given up on seeing an A-10 !!!!!!!!!!!!! That's been my wish since i
saw the 21st. prototype. it takes so long to get new stuff .even when it comes out good luck finding it F104 starfighter!!! I'm really tired of WWII
repaints and the mfg's having contests building the same planes ...
one trying to out do the other.. oooo yea don't forget retooling the same planes over and over again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it's time to move on to new stuff
!!!!! At first this was a fun hobby but know it's turning out to be a big pain in the ass .... i don't hold my breath any more i just turn blue an passout .. hunger strikes make me sick A-10,A-10. A-10... I have more A-10 item's in my collection ejection seats!!! patches, photos,ect.ect.
I just don't want to hear this wait and see **** any more ...
Either put up or shut up!!!!!! I'm done venting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Next person up!!!
Dana

[MG-42]

WOW !!! ...I'M REALLY SORRY YOU FEEL THIS WAY,...MAN.

[krieglok]

Hmm, have to pass on this one...

TJ

[Jesse James]

Eh, it could always be worse...

Hell, wait it was worse a while back when BBI wasn't in the game and 21st may as well not have existed.

For me, I'm not always happy but "wait and see" isn't just these companies, it's almost every toy company. Hasbro's the same way. I think BBI and 21st could do better by their public (though their talks on the forums here are nice), but like I said it could be worse.

For me, I'm kinda glad I've seen fewer planes of late and more land-based items and figures. Finally feel like I have something to actually keep an eye out for after years of NOT having much to look forward to.

[holensock]

I can understand where Dana's coming from...each time I go into a WM or TRU I FEEL THE SAME WAY!! When you think about it, why is bbi and 21C so afraid to tell what's coming out? How many OTHER toy companies are producing 1:18? How many toy companies will be in NY showing off their new 1:18 line? And if they're not going to NY to show off any new 1:18, how many of these companies will actually release ANY 1:18 this year?
Seems that 21C is only copying off of themselves with all the 'repaints'.
bbi released WWII Paratroopers-21C releases their OMG! I bought 'em both!
I'd LOVE to see MORE toy companies COPY 1:18 from bbi and 21C...but I don't think it's gonna happen...so the 'wait and see' seems to be just from TWO companies...and while it IS frustrating, it's a bit of a joke..."SHHH...don't SAY ANYTHING!"..."We don't want anyone else beating us to the finish line"...Did you hear me, 'anyone else'?! Hello?!! Somebody?! Anybody?! Hey, where are all these companies at?!!!

[aferguson]

take a chill pill there Dana....no need for that kind of language here, please.

Everyone gets frustrated waiting at times....maybe you need to find some new interests to help pass the time between releases.

[Birddog]

Pesonally, I think the silence about what one company is doing versuses the other kills some projects we all want to see. Some projects I can see having a broad enough market for two companies to produce (ie. Mustang, Corsair, etc.), so I can see that secrecy can and might help one company get the jump on the other in the market. On larger projects like the B-25, F-4, F-14, A-10, etc., I don't think secrecy will help. If it is known that one company is or has "tentative plans" to produce one of these types of aircraft, the other companies won't touch it. Look at the F-18 and F-16, no one but bbi is producing them. Why? Because they know that there is a limited market for these larger aicraft and there is not enough room for two of them to produce the same one. The cost and development would be too great of a loss to not capture the WHOLE market for that particular aircraft. They "wait and see", for years maybe, to see what that company is truly going to do with that particular aircraft. I don't see why they have to be so secretive about what they are doing with some projects. New aircraft are being produced and I am very very very thankful for what we have in 1/18 scale. God Bless 21st, bbi, and Admiral for their poducts, concern, and what they have done and are going to do. I just think that it would be nice if all three companies would work together in expanding our hobby and not play the information game that may cause delays in one company deciding to produce something for fear of the other doing it as well. I know competition will bring us better products, but sometimes I wonder if it causes us to not see some things at all. PATIENCE is a VIRTUE in this hobby.....

[aferguson]

I agree completely Birdog. I have never understood all the secrecy. If comany X announces they are going to do a Typhoon are they afraid that the other companies are going to try to beat them to the punch? Very unlikely given that company X will have done a fair bit of work already.....it would be very hard for anyone else to produce it before them.

All the secrecy just sort of 'freezes' everyone in my opinion because they don't know what is going on with their competition and so they are leery about taking on big or new projects for fear a competitor is already doing it and will beat them to market.

I don't see why they can't work somewhat co-operatively......much as the Japanese model makers did in the 70's and 80's.....they pretty much divided up all the good topics fairly amongst them so no one got burned by duplicating the efforts of another. There are certainly oodles of good aircraft subjects around...enough for everyone to have lots of juicy stuff to produce. I could offer myself as mediator during negotiations between AT, BBI and 21c....make sure everything is done fairly.

There is probably a good reason for the secrecy we haven't considered...maybe someone from the Big Three will enlighten us some day...

[Birddog]

Let's hope that someday they will enlighten us on their reasoning. Maybe they will work together with eachother someday. We can only hope...

[digger]

I have never understood all the secrecy. If comany X announces they are going to do a Typhoon are they afraid that the other companies are going to try to beat them to the punch? Very unlikely given that company X will have done a fair bit of work already.....it would be very hard for anyone else to produce it before them.....

Not so, actually. 21st could have a P-47 prototype sitting next to their A-10 & Zero prototype. We catch a glimpse of the bbi P-47 and next thing you know we have SIX 21C Razorbacks, and boatload of bubbletops. Safe to say bbi was not pleased about the money they spent developing the 47. Mike has said they do not keep info tight to piss us off, but to keep from the competition which does [sadly] matter.

On the other hand you guys are right in many respects about "putting it out there" - if bbi hadn't denied the Zero all summer amidst all the rumors then Admiral might have realized it was not worth following through on. On the other hand, they are competitors so you can't blame Admiral for tackling the F-86 even though word was out that 21C is working on one (and knowing 21C development time). You can see it's just not as simple as we "called it" so it is ours, or "they're making that so we'll make this..." Wish it were - as Lightning said so well next door and as Andrew just said - the competition actually slows them down as they "wait & see" what each other are doing.

But in some respects, I think the companies need to have some pride in their work. For example, the new bbi WWII Infantry are just so awesome that who really cares if you are scooped on them? Why can't we see any pics at TF of the guys coming at the end of the month? Are they new guys? Are they the rare S1 guys re-released? As collectors we need some courtesy info so we can plan accordingly.

Dana, I am sure you are not alone in your frustration, but we have all been "waiting for the man" like Lou Reed, so the suffering is communal. We share it like a big happy family.

[p51]

Keep in mind it's not up to us. It's the company. They decide what they want to do. It's been like that for years. Every toy company out there has spells like with the 1:18 lines. We should be greatful and not complaining all the time. They won't make aircraft just because one or two people want it made. Sometimes things can influience what they may do, but it's always up to the company. NOT us. And timeframes are again not our timeframes. We can't expect items to just come out whenever we feel like there's a drought or get bored. It doesn't work that way.

I've gotten quite tired of people complaining. Furthermore... the A-10 has never been confirmed anywhere. Prototype or not, 21st has not expressed interest right now. I know something like that can be frustrating because it's favorite aircraft of many... but they know what sells and what doesn't sell better than any of us, and they are the ones who get to decide what to make next.

Threads like this only continue to hurt the companies and get them frustrated. They don't do ANY good whatsoever and in turn cause frustration. Everyone on this board could start a thread complaining about a lack of a certain vehicle/aircraft they may like. But it won't change anything as it really shouldn't. Because if these companies were to just produce what the people posted they want... they wouldn't be able to survive. Just because you might want it doesn't mean they'll be able to sell 10,000 of them around the nation.

[STUKA]

It is very Simple - If company B releases the same Plane as company A then both must share the profit - and one of the planes will have some minor flaw the other plane does not have killing that company's possibility of selling the item in the future.

Company B wants info on the plans for A's product so they can improve and make the better plane -

Company A will send off blury pics of the progress of their plane in order to create uber-hype - this hype allows more product to fly off the shelf and pay for the product research and other costs.

Makes it easier for them to create new products like the a-10 and Dauntless.

[MG-42]

YEAH,.....Thanks P-51 for flying in here to help clear the "smoke" !
I totally agree.

[thetatau87]

I would rather be kept in the dark until the models are very close to release. Dangling carrots like the Avenger or the A-10 prototype at toy fairs of products that may never be built or are years away is pointless. I'd rather have the announcement made that a new model is coming out and be able to pre-order it for delivery in a reasonable time frame.

The 1:18 industry is growing right now and has come a LONG way since the 21c S1 Mustang. There will be a lot of new models in the future. If I don't see them until just before I can buy them, all the better. Less agravation waiting for something to be released the was announced years ago.

[digger]

They show stuff at toy fairs to gauge interest from retailers - not to tempt you and torture you. If you can't accept that what is shown at Toy Fairs may not ever come out - or may not come out for a LONG time - then don't look at the pics, because that is the reality. Toy Fairs are not nec. a preview of "coming soon" or at all.

[immeww2]

I think by now most of us know how things work in our hobby and whether we like it or not we will just have to accept the way things are. Just imagine if 21C never started this whole 1/18 XD world to begin with none of us would be here talking about it. So we have to be grateful for what we have and just be thankful that more items are on the way wherever and whenever they may come from.

[MG-42]

YEAH,...I second that. .....Patience is a virtue !

[p51]

It is very Simple...

It's not... otherwise they'd be doing it that way. They look at a different set of things than collectors do to choose what aircraft to do.

[hworth18]

Keep in mind it's not up to us. It's the company. They decide what they want to do. It's been like that for years. Every toy company out there has spells like with the 1:18 lines. We should be greatful and not complaining all the time. They won't make aircraft just because one or two people want it made. Sometimes things can influience what they may do, but it's always up to the company. NOT us. And timeframes are again not our timeframes. We can't expect items to just come out whenever we feel like there's a drought or get bored. It doesn't work that way.

I've gotten quite tired of people complaining. Furthermore... the A-10 has never been confirmed anywhere. Prototype or not, 21st has not expressed interest right now. I know something like that can be frustrating because it's favorite aircraft of many... but they know what sells and what doesn't sell better than any of us, and they are the ones who get to decide what to make next.

Threads like this only continue to hurt the companies and get them frustrated. They don't do ANY good whatsoever and in turn cause frustration. Everyone on this board could start a thread complaining about a lack of a certain vehicle/aircraft they may like. But it won't change anything as it really shouldn't. Because if these companies were to just produce what the people posted they want... they wouldn't be able to survive. Just because you might want it doesn't mean they'll be able to sell 10,000 of them around the nation.

I agree 100% P-51, unfortunately there are folks that are NEVER happy with anything, gripe about everything and expect what they want now..
With that type of attitude, no company in it's right mind would announce upcoming items and would run from forums where people gripe all the time about the littlest things..

THANKS 21st, BBI and ADMIRAL Toys for all you do, it is much appreiciated!!!!

[KAGNEW]

AMEN

[aferguson]

Jason wrote:

"October of 2004, feels like a longtime in the past but that is the month in which Admiral Toys Incorporated made the decision to produce the F-86. At that time there was absolutely no knowledge by our company that the F-86 was a prospective project of 21st Century Toys. Would we have produced it had we known 21st Century had intentions of producing one?... probably not.

If we all lived in Sir Thomas Moore’s Utopia all the manufactures would come together and promulgate their production line so as not to offend their brethren. But, we do not live in a perfect world and competition is what makes business… well… business.


I can only guess how frustrating it is for you the collector to be caught up in the middle of such a competitive hobby. It is equally as frustrating for us. If Admiral Toys Incorporated was the only manufacturer of 1:18 aircraft we would not hesitate to say we are coming out in May with X, July with Y, and October with Z. But we are not the only manufacturer and competition does exist. It is a necessary evil of business.

Competition has advanced this hobby to extreme levels. For example, as a first release into the market Admiral would never have added leading edge slats or working ammunition doors on our model if we thought it would be accepted by you the consumer without these extras. It is not because we are cheap it is because of the extra cost incurred by every little thing you add to a model. Just take a look at the first releases of years past in comparison to what is produced today. It is a direct reaction to the competition.

As for the repaint issue and lack of new models:

I wish I could tell you the cost of production, which would be inappropriate. But I can say we manufactures would love to sell you a limited release of model X and move onto another totally new model never to produce X again, but you would be paying somewhere in the neighborhood of $300 a model. I do not think you would be willing to pay those kinds of prices. It is not cheap producing these things. They are huge expensive models to manufacture. If you stop buying repaints many companies would go out of business. That cannot be good for the hobby.

The cost also ties directly into the need for confidentiality in this business. There is a limited market for such large models. We cannot sell enough of our own models to cover cost if we are competing with another company on the same model. There are certain airplanes that are so popular that yes you can have two companies producing them at the same time. But those airplanes are few and the cost if you get caught in a race for sales is pricey. It would be very easy for me to state a list of aircraft we intend to produce in hopes of discouraging the competition from producing them. The list would be long and would take years to fulfill in production. Do you think the other companies would like to sit around and wonder if X is first or is Y next?

As for the “wait and see” issue:

We would love not to say “wait and see” but you keep asking! I myself (and I am sure Mike has experience the same) have received no less then 100 inquiries about the same aircraft that we did not release any information or intend to release any information pertaining to that particular aircraft. We usually only say “wait and see” to questions you ask. We are not in the position to answer them and would not have brought it up had it not been for your question. I have only said wait and see on my own accord to one major mess up that was my fault. I thought Admiral Toys Incorporated would be ready to release the name of our next model and I was wrong. We have experienced a setback and we do not know when it will be announced. We are working feverishly on three more releases that you should see by the end of the year.

“Dare I say wait and see… no… I guess I should say don’t ask, we will tell you when we are good and ready. We didn’t even have to tell you as much as we have.”

But that sounds rude and inappropriate for a representative of a company so you will not hear such a staunch reply, at least not from me. Wait and see is a very appropriate answer to the questions you pose that we had no intentions of bringing up in the first place.

I like coming to this board and reading the post. I enjoy the scope of knowledge contained by its members. But once we made ourselves available for information and questions we also made ourselves available for attack. We do not say wait and see to make you angry, we say wait and see because we are not ready to answer the question. I cannot say with absolute certainty that Admiral Toys Incorporated will not produce a certain airplane. We ourselves do not know. I think BBI, 21st Century and Admiral Toys have been very forthcoming with information that they never had to offer in the first place. We know you are excited about your hobby, we are too. We never would have started doing what we do if we did not love models and the military. But there are times when we have to know more then you do. That is just the way the game is played.

I am always available to answer a question or two. But understand that we have to answer the question how we see fit, not necessarily the answer you were looking for. The best questions you can ask a manufacturer is about manufacturing, i.e. the process etcetera. They do not like to discuss future releases. I hope this answers some of your questions and sheds light on the issues.

Regards,

Jason"

[Quixote511]

A well thought out and an articulate response, I appreciate your candor. Personally, I think half the fun of owning something is the anticiaption and the guessing games I play with myself. (probably why I still like opening Christmas presents). Thanks for the insight.
Aaron

[Birddog]

Thanks as always for your courteous and fast response Jason. Although at times I know it is dicouraging to have to explain so much, we do appreciate all the information you share. You do give us hope and some piece of mind by showing your presence and interests by communicating with us. Thank you for not letting rants and criticizms turn you away from sharing what you can.

[lsc1002]

I with you theatau87, I think it is great when I get surprised. I would rather not know anything until it is time to pre-order from Badcat. That way there is no disappointment when the item is not on the shelf, pushed back or whatever. It was the same way when being deployed in the military. I always preferred to have my NCO come in say “back your bags” then have a redeployment date that kept being pushed back, it was moral killer. Remember two weeks ago how everybody was so surprised when that new Dodge Weapons Carrier came out it so cool because no one expected it.

[KAGNEW]

thanx Jason
we love to read yours and others updates