3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by gburch » Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:06 am

CW4USARMY wrote:I admire you persistence and patience. Already looking great and will really be something when its all complete! :D
Thanks. It's definitely become an obsession, that's for sure. And there's no question it "will really be something" some day. The questions are what it will be and when :lol:

While I'm continuing to work on fine surface finishing on the Rev. 0 bird, I've been working on some ideas for a "next rev." These have ended up being so different from the Rev. 0 bird that I'm sure the next version I build to "completion" will NOT be a "Rev. 1" in the sense that that is the one I commit to as something I might share with a wider world as some sort of kit (again, if I EVER do such a crazy thing).

Here's a pic of the new body-fin interface design I'm working on:

Image

On the left is a "clean" print of the fully refined Rev. 0 body bottom I printed out for "archive" purposes. On the right is the same body section with the new fin interface design. You can clearly see the different approach in this pic: The new method is to incorporate the full fin fillet/fairing into the fin print, and the recess is a registration "slot" formed into the first body section, instead of a "tab" as in Rev. O.

Also note these two parts are still attached to the print base designed into the part that ensures that there's a minimum of (actually, now, almost no) warping in the first layers of the actual part. This print base has to be sawed off before the part is incorporated into the model. I've put a lot of effort into developing this technique to come up with the best balance between getting a good flat first layer for the part and minimizing extra print time and sawing time.

(The figure here is a custom I made last year using the kid figure from the Terminator series. EDIT: Correction: Indy, not Terminator ...)

Here's a pic of the first two test body sections and a test fin section sitting together without gluing, to demonstrate the new mechanical structure of the fin/body interface:

Image

Based on a few hours of design and printing, I THINK this approach is going to produce a better, more buildable set of parts with slightly less build time, less sanding, and that might present the OPTION of building the model with removable fins.

At any rate, with these developments, the next version will definitely be a "Rev 0.5" rather than a "Rev. 1"
Last edited by gburch on Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by gburch » Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:03 am

Weekend Update Number Seven Bazzilion and One:

The Rev.0 bird is now sitting on her own four legs and has been almost completely prepped for painting:

Image

Here are a couple of closer shots of the fins and lower body, that show the amount of filling and sanding (a LOT) that's gone into the whole project, but especially the fins and the fin-body joint:

Image
Image

As I get closer to painting on this first "finished" version, I'm making a couple of decisions about the project going forward from here:

1. I'm resigned to accept that the Rev. 0 bird is a pure "proof of concept" in the sense that I'm NOT going to put the time and effort into crafting the fine surface details (like the flap actuator fairings on the fins, the rocket nozzle vanes or the various access hatches) for this model. I hope she'll look pretty impressive from a distance, but won't stand close scrutiny by anyone who knows much of anything about the A-4. The time and effort that I'd spend working on such details is better spent on working on the next revision, and I don't want to put that effort into a model that already has visible compromises I think I can improve on (for instance, the cross-section of the fins at the top, which is too fat and flat).

2. I'm going to slow way down on the next rev. There are still many challenges that lie ahead in this project (mainly perfecting the new fin design, trying to design and print into the parts some of the fine surface detail and improving the basic approach to the design and printing of the body sections to decrease print time and improve fit and "buildability). So, I'm going to go to paint on Rev. 0 so I have something satisfying to look at and inspire me while I work at a slower, more deliberate pace on further real progress.

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by pickelhaube » Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:37 pm

It sure is impressive looking. :D
Kirk Douglas : Mine hit the ground first
John Wayne : Mine was taller



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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by gburch » Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:18 am

pickelhaube wrote:It sure is impressive looking. :D
Thanks but, as I note above, this version won't bear close scrutiny. As I've been applying the first coats of paint over the last two days, I'm running into some personal limitations in my modeling knowledge and skills. I'm pretty good at design and fabrication, but frankly lousy when it comes to surface finishing and paint. Using spray lacquer helps -- I've always gotten the best results in terms of smoothness of application and lack of "orange peel" with lacquer but, up close, the flaws in the putty/sanding are visible on this model. Before I could take this project to a level even close to the what some of the master modelers we have here on the forum get, I'm going to have to experiment with better surface finishing techniques.

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by pickelhaube » Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:03 am

gburch wrote:
pickelhaube wrote:It sure is impressive looking. :D
Thanks but, as I note above, this version won't bear close scrutiny. As I've been applying the first coats of paint over the last two days, I'm running into some personal limitations in my modeling knowledge and skills. I'm pretty good at design and fabrication, but frankly lousy when it comes to surface finishing and paint. Using spray lacquer helps -- I've always gotten the best results in terms of smoothness of application and lack of "orange peel" with lacquer but, up close, the flaws in the putty/sanding are visible on this model. Before I could take this project to a level even close to the what some of the master modelers we have here on the forum get, I'm going to have to experiment with better surface finishing techniques.

They make a " FILLING " primer that I have used before. You can get it at O'Rieley's.

It fills minor pin holes and the like. A few coats of that sanded in between could get you a smooth base .
Kirk Douglas : Mine hit the ground first
John Wayne : Mine was taller



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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by gburch » Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:20 am

pickelhaube wrote:They make a " FILLING " primer that I have used before. You can get it at O'Rieley's.

It fills minor pin holes and the like. A few coats of that sanded in between could get you a smooth base .
Thanks for the tip. I will DEFINITELY check this out, as filling is the MAJOR finishing issue with the printing technology I'm working with.

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by gburch » Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:36 pm

Inspection after the white paint's gone on:

Image
Image

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by gburch » Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:56 pm

!
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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by PanzerArm » Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:56 pm

Wow! Beautiful work!

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by margerisons » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:45 pm

Great work!!

Did the small rivets from the manufacturing process fill with paint?

Here's a U-boat made by the Maker-Bot printer,
Don't know anything about scale.
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:6432

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by gburch » Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:42 am

margerisons wrote:Great work!!

Did the small rivets from the manufacturing process fill with paint?

Here's a U-boat made by the Maker-Bot printer,
Don't know anything about scale.
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:6432
The layering from the printing process was filled with putty and LOTS of sanding before painting. MOST of the printing surface artifacts were taken care of this way but by all means not all of them -- I'd say 95%+. On this pre-protoype version I used acrylic modeling paste, but I'm going to be experimenting with other methods over the coming weeks and months.

I follow Thingiverse (have even posted some work there). I saw the U-Boat and it inspired me to keep going with the V-2. I'd say it's 1/72 or a little smaller.

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by gburch » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:35 am

Delays ... I had work-work this last weekend and then, when I was able to return to The Obsession, ran into a known issue with my printer. The DC motor that runs the extruder died. This turned out to be a weak element in the design of the MakerBot that has since been addressed by replacing the extruder motor with a stepper like the ones that drive the XYZ stage movements. Unfortunately, that upgrade is in such high demand that it's out of stock, with no projected date for availability. I've ordered a replacement DC motor to see if I can restore the original configuration, but it may be a couple of weeks before I know if even that will work.

Before that happened, I was making progress on development of the new fin-body interface design:

Image
Image

As always at this stage, these pics show prototype parts that aren't glued together, so they don't reflect the fit that production parts would have.

So, until I can start cranking out plastic again, I'll be working on details on the V-2 computer files, like including things the rudder actuator fairings into the fins, maybe a few of the larger surface details on the body, and the like.

I may also go back to working on the design of what could possibly be the next project. A hint about what that project might be: another single-stage liquid-fuel rocket, only this one has a man in it and would be all black ...

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by gburch » Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:10 am

Image
?

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by Black_Dragon_One » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:36 pm

gburch wrote:Image
?
make a 1 18 scale sam? that be sweet
whats up doc....

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by gburch » Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:17 pm

Black_Dragon_One wrote: make a 1 18 scale sam? that be sweet
uhmmm, nope. This should make it easier:

Image

... just in the sketchin' and thinkin' stage ...

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by aae83 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:43 pm

X-15
Was it for this my life I sought? Maybe so, and maybe not...

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by gburch » Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:12 am

Yep. I grew up during the X-15 era. I built at least three or four of the Revell kits. I followed every step of the program and the X-15 pilots were my heroes. As an adult, I made a fairly elaborate X-15 addon for the Orbiter spaceflight simulator program with a collaborator on the rocket science part. So doing a 1/18 X-15 is pretty much a natural for me. Given the mainly military orientation of this forum, I wonder whether there would be much interest in it if I were to try to put it into "production," although the popularity of the X-1 indicates there might be some interest.

FWIW, here's a video someone made with my X-15 in the Orbiter simulator:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tp5djn64 ... re=related

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by aae83 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:06 pm

Cool video.

During my previous life as an aerodynamicist and flight controls engineer, I got to meet and work with three of the X-15 pilots: Scott Crossfield, Bill Dana and Joe Engle.

Back in 1990, I dragged Joe E. out onto a Frisbee golf course in Downey, CA, introducing him to disc golf. He's a good sport, and great and personable guy. :)

The X-15 would be sweet in 1:18. I'd be in, for sure.
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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by gburch » Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:07 pm

Weekend Update:
One thing I can say for MakerBot, they have EXCELLENT customer service for a small start-up. Not only did they get me a replacement DC extruder motor immediately, but they've also found a stepper-motor extruder head and I'll have it next week. The DC motor arrived before the weekend, and I had the old one out and the new one in and working in under twenty minutes, despite having to pull the whole extruder assembly to get the job done.

With that done I dropped the design work I was doing on the X-15 and got back to work on the new version of the V-2. Here's a shot of a day and half of experiments and printing:

Image

In this pic you can see various versions of the new fin design and some more components of the new body. The fin on the right has a new, much more realistic cross-section in the bottom part, and also a printed-in rudder mechanism fairing. Both are based on hours of scouring the web for even more photos and study of a fairly complete set of V-2 blueprints I found.

Unfortunately, the fin work up to this point has revealed a tweak I need to do in the middle fin section to get a better fit ... so there's another day's printing chalked up to the gods of rapid protoyping ...

Meanwhile, I've got some material to test out new surface finishing techniques and will be playing in the chemistry part of the mad scientist lab later this weekend ...
aae83 wrote:Cool video.

During my previous life as an aerodynamicist and flight controls engineer, I got to meet and work with three of the X-15 pilots: Scott Crossfield, Bill Dana and Joe Engle.

Back in 1990, I dragged Joe E. out onto a Frisbee golf course in Downey, CA, introducing him to disc golf. He's a good sport, and great and personable guy. :)

The X-15 would be sweet in 1:18. I'd be in, for sure.
Great story. I envy you meeting three of the X-15 drivers. They're almost all gone now ... except Dana, Engle andl Armstrong. Makes me feel old ...

Based on the work I've done so far, I'm pretty sure I'll do at least some test work to see if an X-15 could be made as a printed set of parts. Given how things are going on the A4 project, though, it'll likely be months before I start cranking plastic to even see how that idea begins to take shape. With so many moving parts on the X-15 (as opposed to the A4), though, I'm sure even a fairly finished first set of parts would pretty much be a static, hanging-only bird.

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by DocTodd » Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:24 pm

That looks like great fun. Enjoy watching your progress.
Todd

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by gburch » Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:45 am

Rocket Factory:

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by flyboy_fx » Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:29 pm

DAMN! 8)
"Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better."
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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by gburch » Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:08 am

Klein Peenemunde update:

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The pic above shows that I've now printed out a full set of parts for the Rev 0.5 bird. The following pic shows most of the items that have been addressed in this version:

Image

These parts are just test-fitted together -- no gluing, so the joints aren't as tight as they'd be if they were glued. You can see the steam vent printed into the bottom of the body, the new fin-body mechanical interface, the new, more realistic cross-section of the bottom of the fins and the printed-in rudder-actuator chain fairing.

There are a number of important details that can be see in this pic. The first is something that, when I was younger, would have caused me to throw a screaming fit when I noticed it (and probably put the project aside for a long time, or forever, out of frustration and anger). Fortunately, with age comes more patience. The rudder-actuator chain fairing is wrong, wrong, wrong. It's about 30% too short at the top. I spent a couple of hours frantically going back over the V-2 blueprints to confirm that I got this wrong and figuring out how I could make such a stooopid mistake. One wrong choice of a "key-point" on the blueprint to use as the guide for the length of the fairing ... Given that each fin takes almost three hours to print when I add up all three parts that make it up, and that I was well along in surface finishing when I noticed this, this one stooopid error accounts for almost a week of "wasted" work ...

But it wasn't all wasted, because I've been using the time to continue experiments in surface finishing. One experiment involved dipping parts in a bath of acetone. The idea with this method is to slightly melt the outer surface of the part to cause the striations created by the layering of the print process to even out. FAIL. I can see how those who have recommended this method got somewhat good results, given what they were trying to achieve, but the loss of surface detail and precision is too high for a scale model, and the lack of control over the process (at least with the equipment I have) is too great.

I also did a number of experiments with the auto paint "filling primer" suggested by Pickelhaube. This showed significant promise in a number of experiments, but seemed like it would not address the whole problem.

This lead me to work up a whole series of experiments combining various methods in series. The goal was minimizing sanding time and improving final surface finish. The current best result, which I'll be pursuing with the fin set seen in the pics above, consists of the following:

Step 1: Initial heavy sanding. Sanding the printed piece with very heavy grit sandpaper (100 grit). This takes out the largest imperfections and decreases the over-all relief of the striations SOMEWHAT.

Step 2: Component joinder. Major assemblies glued together with CA.

Step 3. Heavy puttying with acrylic modeling paste (the same filler I used for the entire finishing process on the Rev. 0 bird). This fills the largest joinder gaps and all of the layering striations.

Step 4. Heavy sanding. The acrylic paste is brought down to the top plastic striation layers, again with 100-120 grit sandpaper. This leaves some significant pits caused by air bubbles in the initial paste coat.

Step 5. Acryllic paste touch-up. The largest remaining pits are filled with acryllic paste and sanded again with heavy grit paper.

Step 6. Filler primer first coat. This is sanded with heavy, and then medium paper and provides a "macro-smooth" finish. At the end of this stage some of the surface below the filler primer is visible and the surface shape of the component is as good as it gets and only sanding artifacts remain.

Step 7. Filler primer second coat. This is sanded with increasingly fine sandpaper grades all the way to super-duper-fine polishing paper. At the end of this stage, only the primer is visible.

Step 8. Painting with lacqer. Just like a normal project.

That may seem like a LOT (and it is) but, believe it or not, it actually involves about half the sanding time that I put into equivalent surfaces with the Rev. 0 bird, and produces a glass-smooth finish.

I'm going to follow this procedure for the first iteration of the whole Rev 0.5 bird. What won't be there when I finish will be any fine surface detail -- panel lines or fasteners. I haven't even begun to consider seriously how I'd address that, although I've had some discussion about it off-forum with folks who are interested. (And note -- I'll continue that discussion soon.)

Finally, the third thing that's apparent to me from the second pic is that I definitely went the right way with the new fin-body mechanical interface, because it's much more conducive to the iterative rapid protoyping 3d printing methodology. With this design, I don't have to chunk the whole bird because I screwed up one design detail, and I can continue to improve various major components on a single development bird. Thus this Rev 0.5 rocket will likely remain the on-going development article for some months, until I'm ready to declare a true "Rev 1."

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by aae83 » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:50 am

So, I'm curious: how much does the beast weigh? It looks quite sturdy and self-supporting at this point.

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by gburch » Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:51 pm

aae83 wrote:So, I'm curious: how much does the beast weigh? It looks quite sturdy and self-supporting at this point.

aae
A quick "heft test" indicates it's lighter by a good bit than a P-38 ... maybe about like a P-47. It is very sturdy and self-supporting. The very thin-wall upper body sections (above the fins) are stiffened by the couplings I've made, so unless you squeeze pretty hard in just the right place, there's no "give" there. The lower body sections are pretty thick, so they're quite strong. The fins are solid ABS -- also very rigid and strong.

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