R4M rocket tactics?

[aferguson]

what was the usual/best way of attacking bomber streams with R4M rockets? From the side, front, rear, quarters? Anyone have any info?

[hworth18]

I remember reading somewhere that the Me-262 pilots would attack high and from the rear and fire the rockets in a volley that would blanket the bomber.

[aferguson]

thanks much!

now i just need to track down some b-17's..

[gouchy]

I too remember reading somewhere that the rockets were meant to detonate in the middle of the B17s combat box cluster/formation, scattering them to reduce the effectiveness of the collective B17 guns and be picked off by other german fighters.

So will presume coming from high behind or high head on sounds about right... I think... well it worked for me in Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe pc game

[aferguson]

i think you're thinking of the larger wurfgerat rockets carried by 109's, 110's etc. Usually 2 or 4 per plane. Those were intended to break up the bomber formations. The R4M's were much smaller and intended to take out individual aircraft...one hit from one rocket normally being enough to accomplish this...they were launched in clusters which would pretty much gaurantee at least one hit.

[gouchy]

!

Its downright embarrasing to be spewing inaccurate nonsense without doin proper checking what you guys are referring to... lesson learned

[aferguson]

lol....not really a big thing. The larger rockets were taken straight from 21cm nebelwerfers; two were carried per 109 and four per 110. They were pretty inaccurate so the chances of a direct hit were minimal, however it did happen...but they were ideal for dispersing the tight boxes the US bombers flew in for mutual protection (this was before there was escort all the way to germany and back). They were first used mid 1943 and were in part responsible for the high US bomber losses over Schweinfurt, in the raid where over 60 bombers were downed.

The smaller R4M's didnt appear til 1945 and were highly effective but too few to make a difference at that point.

[tmanthegreat]

If its any help, 15 years ago or so, I had the Aces Over Europe combat flight simulator game. This was one of the early combat flight sim games and while the 1993-94-style graphics are a far cry from today, it really was a great game and the aircraft had realistic armaments, flight characteristics, and you flew using real tactics.

You could fly the ME-262 in the game and it had the R4M rockets. In one scenario, you engaged a flight of four B-26s, escorted by 4 P-51s, with the goal of downing the bombers before they bombed your airfield.

It was suggested to fire the rockets in a long sweep against the bombers. Much as Hworth18 described, you would ideally position yourself to the rear and above the bombers, dive towards the formation, and release the rockets in a salvo as you gently pulled up, while still maintaining your speed to get clear of the escort fighters. That manuver would increase the spread of the rocket salvo and in effect "blanket" the bombers.

In the game, if you timed this manuver correctly, it was quite easy to knock out two or more of the bombers in the formation. The complicating factors were that the bombers dished out a lot of defensive fire, you were going significantly faster than the bombers and risked a collision, and then there were the P-51s. The manuver could also be adopted to a banking manuver, left or right, along the line of the bomber formation to achieve the same effect. The disadvantage was that the turn slowed you down significantly, whence the P-51s would pounce.

I'm not sure how historically accurate any of my tactics were, but in a reasonably accurate computer recreation, they worked

[gouchy]

Aferg

Tman, has it really been so long since Aces over Europe? Wow...time really flies! Feeling really nostalgic about the games back then, anyone remember the first Castle Wolfenstein 2D game? "Halt!...Kamerad!"

[Razor17019]

I was an avid Aces Over Europe player in my day, as well. I remember flying the ME-163 that had weapon mounted in the wing. I thought this was rocket at the time. But, using my google skills, I found out this was:
A number of innovative solutions were implemented to ensure kills by less experienced pilots; the most promising was a unique weapon called the Sondergerät 500 Jägerfaust. This consisted of a series of single-shot, short-barreled 50 mm (2 in) guns pointing upwards. Five were mounted in the wing roots on each side of the aircraft. The trigger was tied to a photocell in the upper surface of the aircraft, and when the Komet flew under the bomber, the resulting change in brightness caused by the underside of the aircraft could cause the rounds to be fired.
It was really cool to fly...
Sorry, AFerg. Took your thread for a little trip down memory lane.

No returning to the topic at hand...

[gouchy]

Razor, did this photocell really work? I'm thinking so many things could go wrong and misfire and the poor sod prob had to fly really close underneath

[Razor17019]

Razor, did this photocell really work? I'm thinking so many things could go wrong and misfire and the poor sod prob had to fly really close underneath

I think they had an arming switch, so they would not go off until they were ready.

[gouchy]

Ah I see...makes perfect sense then, thanks Razor

[aferguson]

Jägerfaust (it had another name as well) was used only once in combat, as far as is known.

The bomber that was struck by it was said to have virtually vaporized. It's believed it was a Halifax.

If it had been employed in large numbers it could have been deadly, for sure..

[normandy]

http://www.stormbirds.net/tech_r4m_rocket.htm