zimm and its application (historically) for a project

Cabe · Post by **Cabe** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:09 pm

I am adding zimm to a FoV panther for Nhoggard12
and a waffle pattern I started as a test of my approach on a stug IV

this is my first ever attempt to add zimm to a AFV of any sort.
I am using squadron putty mixed with tamiya super thin plastic cement for added working time before it sets up and a stamp kit for zimm i bought like a year ago off ebay.

So far so good except the messiness of the stamp. It works really well but as the putty sets up (or if I try to start on it too soon after application) I can get some rough areas where the putty gets stuck in the stamp like a soccer cleat full of mud. This can cause repeated lifting of the zimm putty in areas. I also get less defined imprints as it sets up as I go along or squooshed out areas where the putty depth is deeper that other areas.

My question is about the uniformity of zimm when it was applied in the factory. I know that the pattern where uniform for AFV to AFV (waffle, slanted, linear ect) but how CLEAN was the job? I see a bunch of kits or K&C (or even FoV) that have zimm thats is very un-uniform and others where to zimm and its symmetry is perfect. I need to know if zimm had its imperfections or if most examples we see today are guesstimates of how clean and anal retentive the job was done, or is the jury in that it was very refines in its final appearance. I don't mind cleaning it up, taking off the protrusions and using some imperfections to represent zimm falling off the tank due to damage of the coating. But I also LIKE the rough almost haphazard way some areas have come out and think it gives the tank more character

how far off reality would it be to have a rough imperfect application?

any info or suggestions?

oh and i will add pics soon

Cabe · Post by **Cabe** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:32 pm

Admittedly this is a rough look without knocking off the protrusions, but here are some pics

Panzer_M · Post by **Panzer_M** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:56 pm

It depended alot on the vehicle, some where "clean" were the zimm was applied with "care" for lack of a better term, like on Square patterned Panthers(can't think of the firm that did that pattern)..or rough like some Alkett Stugs where it looks like it was done in haste.

There are no hard and fast rules about zimmerit application but there are some general guidelines. Nobody, as far as I know, has produced photos of zimmerit application. The best we have are the photos of Panther A's on the assembly line at MAN, found in Jentz's big panther book, which show the process in progress with a skim coat and a second coat textured with a "roller gear."

I know it's controversial, and a lot of people get upset about it, but I don't think any of the grooved patterns were done with a toothed trowel. They were done by either pressing each groove with a trowel or by rolling with a gear, or in the case of the Stug waffle pattern, a waffle roller or plate.

We have to take each example and look at it closely. There are trends and patterns that can be linked to deifferent periods and factories. The photos and article at www.panzerdiesel.de are a good start but it would be nice to see a more comprehensive article with a discussion of technique.

Sometimes we find a combination of techniques on a single vehicle: On the Tiger I and IIs we see roller and individual trowel press patterns.

Vertical roller gear only

http://www.panzerdiesel.com/data/e/27p5 ... 6c83a3c169

Horizontal roller gear and pressed trowel together

http://www.panzerdiesel.com/data/e/27p6 ... 6c83a3c169

Pressed trowel only

http://www.panzerdiesel.com/data/e/27p4 ... 6c83a3c169

Cabe · Post by **Cabe** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:10 pm

all these links are broken? Takes me to a site with an old gelb stug and a bunch of links. But none take me to zimm and your links seems to all goto the same page, red banner than says panzer diesel with the gelb stug
if you have working links to what you were wanting to share I would love to see them/more
thanks

Panzer_M · Post by **Panzer_M** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:55 am

Sorry these were book marked along time ago from Missing_lynx.com's forum.

I got this from Track_Links

http://www.track-link.net/articles/15 <shows type, what AFV used what style and basic modelling of Zimm.

Re: Uniformity of zimmerit patterns

Zimmerit was applied by a trowel over the red primer in two layers, on subsequent days, and each layer was force-dried using an alcohol torch (otherwise, it took eight days to dry). The first layer was a scratch coat, and was smeared on and roughly patterned into a simple pattern of squares with the edge of the trowel. This was to give it a "tooth" for the second, finish coat. Under pressure of time, some Panther Ausf. A and Jagdpanthers were delivered with this one layer only, and this is by far the easiest Zimmerit pattern to apply, since you just need some putty and a razor knife.
The second layer was supposed to be applied in a "breaking wave" pattern by pressing the edge of the trowel into the putty at a 45 degree angle. This just about doubled the effective thickness of the layer without adding much weight. Some Jagdpanzer IV and Tiger I turrets were finished this way. However, the process was needlessly time consuming, so the factories devised simple metal combs, stamps or rollers to speed the process. This is why the patterns look so uniform except around projecting features like bolts or machine gun mounts. A careful examination of the putty can suggest which technique was used on "your" vehicle.

Panzer_M · Post by **Panzer_M** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:56 am

Cabe wrote:all these links are broken? Takes me to a site with an old gelb stug and a bunch of links. But none take me to zimm and your links seems to all goto the same page, red banner than says panzer diesel with the gelb stug
if you have working links to what you were wanting to share I would love to see them/more
thanks

yea it seems Panzer_Diesel is as a referance site now dead..also are several other good photo sites from Europe.

smittyrob64 · Post by **smittyrob64** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:26 am

http://www.choiquehobbies.com.ar/revist ... m/zime.htm

"The applications in the factory were generally neat and uniform apparently, while the applications in the field were not it so much, mainly keeping in mind the battle conditions and the available time for the company to complete the application."