The Mexican stand off is one of the reason we are not seeing

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:55 pm

The Mexican stand off is one of the reason we are not seeing what we want made in 1/18th. To many companies OK 2.......want to make the same thing in 1/18th there are just so many popular items that need to be made...how do we break this cycle?

We all know its expensive to make what we wan, And I can see the reason why no company wants to make something to get side swiped by another company making the same thing...thus losing market shares..

But at this rate nothing will get made......three things can happen ether Admiral toys goes to 1/16th and will never have to worry about bbi making what they make ......a bit more expensive

Make it and don't say a dam thing till it hits the water...my favorite

or come to an agreement with bbi on who is going to make what...well that's not working...at least for the A-10

GooglyDoogly · Post by **GooglyDoogly** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:23 pm

Funny, I didn't get that from Jason's post. BBI had long since had an A-10 prototype made. As to why they haven't released it? Only they know the answer.

But BBI isn't waiting for AT to make an A-10 and then steal AT's thunder by announcing one as well. BBI is a big successful company. They don't need to resort to low-down tactics like 21st did with the Phantom fiasco.

BBI marches to the beat of their own drums. They don't aggresively compete with other companies. They will produce what they think will sell, not to drive another company to the ground.

let's not pit BBI against AT. It seems like the two companies are fairly amicable at this point in time, by the fact that Jason talks with people from BBI.

grunt1 · Post by **grunt1** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:37 pm

Totally agree with Goog... BBI put out the Corsair and Mustang and appeared to have no issues with the fact that 21C was shipping the same things.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:40 pm

then why is Jason so hesatent to make it?

I will not tell you the specifics of the conversation because of respect for the nature of that conversation; however, I can say that we decided not to produce the A-10 at that time. I am not saying BBI has an A-10 produced. I am saying that there was enough indecision to warrant our decision to not waste time and money on the effort, at this time.

SO… again… WHERE IS IT NOW?... I do not know. I know where it is in the minds of Admiral Toys… an aircraft that definitely needs to be produced. However, that decision has not been made at this time. BBI can make a move on the A-10 if they wish. We know that it would not hurt BBI to go toe to toe on a 1:18 A-10 with Admiral Toys Incorporated. I wish we could say the same in reverse.

Sounds to me like bbi has not said they will or will not....or they are leaving that option open... It looks like Jason has strong feelings that bbi could make one and that would cut the market shares in half for AT..

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:42 pm

grunt1 wrote:Totally agree with Goog... BBI put out the Corsair and Mustang and appeared to have no issues with the fact that 21C was shipping the same things.

Bbi may not have an issue with it but Jason does.
And that is what Jason does not want to happen. He does not want to cut the market in half and risk losing market shares to bbi..

....thus lowering the potential profit on any 1/8th a-10...

... Jason has stated this in the past on another topic...but I am sure it is true for the A-10, as well

Grilledcheese · Post by **Grilledcheese** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:30 pm

WE are not going to change anything. WE are a handful of people on an obscure website devoted to a niche market. WE only serve to give a bit of feedback to any company that wishes to listen.
Blue Box Toys is a massive company, likely producing darn near every toy type you can think of. WE will not have any bearing on their decisions.
Admiral Toys is a small company that can't afford to challenge the big guys by repeatedly producing identical models. What WE want isn't worth bankrupting their company over, and rightly so.
WE can continue to provide input when asked, and WE can buy the product when it is offered.

And that's about it.
I'm not trying to be pessimistic, just realistic. And yes, quite often reality sucks.

Jeffrey

Post by **aferguson** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:40 pm

ok, time to clear up a couple of things.

First, BBI was going to release the A10 two years ago. They offered it to TRU, but TRU didn't want it because they had already committed to another A10, namely the Power Team one. So, without a major retailer BBI was and probably still is reluctant to release such a large and expensive aircraft and rely soley on internet sales. Now if anyone wants to front the money for a production run, exclusive rights are yours and you can sell it any which way you want to....all 10,000 of them or whatever you can afford to have produced.

Second, 21c was going to release an F-4; they had fully planned it long before they ever heard of AT's F-4 and they were going to announce it at Toy Fair two years ago. To their surprise, AT announced their F-4 on the first day of the show....21c had planned to announce theirs on the last day as sort of a grand finale.

Feeling scooped they didn't know what else to do but to rush and announce the 21c F-4 three days earlier than they had planned. Now, i agree it was somewhat underhanded to announce a really low price tag, but that's business.

However, the misconception that they totally made up an F-4 just to steal AT's thunder is completely wrong. I'm getting a little tired of 21c being beaten up over it. They didn't do anything wrong. It was just a bizarre coincidence. And i'm sure at the time 21c was getting a bit tired of being scooped by AT. Admiral came out with their F-86 just before 21st did, if you recall. And then AT came out with their 262 a few months before the 21c one was to be released. Again, purely coincidence but i'm sure when they heard AT announce the F-4 they were thinking 'not again!'.

So, let's cut them a little slack. They have produced some wonderful toys for us over the years and they may well be on their death bed.....though i sure hope not. But let's all think well of them and not as the company that fraked up the F-4 for us....

GooglyDoogly · Post by **GooglyDoogly** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:56 pm

aferguson wrote:ok, time to clear up a couple of things.

Second, 21c was going to release an F-4; they had fully planned it long before they ever heard of AT's F-4 and they were going to announce it at Toy Fair two years ago. To their surprise, AT announced their F-4 on the first day of the show....21c had planned to announce theirs on the last day as sort of a grand finale.

Feeling scooped they didn't know what else to do but to rush and announce the 21c F-4 three days earlier than they had planned. Now, i agree it was somewhat underhanded to announce a really low price tag, but that's business.

However, the misconception that they totally made up an F-4 just to steal AT's thunder is completely wrong. I'm getting a little tired of 21c being beaten up over it. They didn't do anything wrong. It was just a bizarre coincidence. And i'm sure at the time 21c was getting a bit tired of being scooped by AT. Admiral came out with their F-86 just before 21st did, if you recall. And then AT came out with their 262 a few months before the 21c one was to be released. Again, purely coincidence but i'm sure when they heard AT announce the F-4 they were thinking 'not again!'.

So, let's cut them a little slack. They have produced some wonderful toys for us over the years and they may well be on their death bed.....though i sure hope not. But let's all think well of them and not as the company that fraked up the F-4 for us....

Funny, they didn't even have anything to show for it.

That's why there was such a rush to hire a professional modeler to build a 1/32 Tamiya F-4 paint master for them.

And aside from a pretty banner that announces its $89.99 price point...nothing.

Heck, even people who talked to people who worked for 21st in Toy Fair went, "...what 1/18 Phantom?" When asked about it.

Heck, if the F4 would be such a grand finale for them, they'd have something to show for it...right? They showed prototypes and sneak peeks of everything else, including new figs, quad trailers, 88mm, King Tiger, etc...but their "grand finale" is oddly missing....

Post by **aferguson** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:58 pm

doubt if you must but what i have said is correct.

Jericoeagle1 · Post by **Jericoeagle1** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:23 pm

Generally speaking its all water under the bridge now, and while I've had my qualms about 21st in the past. I think there is more harm in letting them go under then having them stay afloat. If I can find their products at good prices I'll keep buying them I know there will always be a demand for them. Perhaps not a torrent but a trickle and I feel confident that the bad economic times can't last forever. So I think its in all our best interest to be supportive.

Coreyeagle48 · Post by **Coreyeagle48** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:48 pm

Greetings:

There are several points to consider with the marketplace and 1/18 scale toys:

-The current economic situation and rising costs of production and materials have forced many companies to rethink their costs. Personally, BBI and Admiral are being very smart. They are treading cautiously waiting to see what happens in the market. This is a good move. Jason has even said this in his posts. It is better for them to hold off on releases until they can be profitable. It will help them stay in business and remain competitive. The more they sell, the better health the companies will be in going toward the future. There will always be people that buy a product because they can afford to or that is their passion, but right now, the average person isn't spending the extra money. Waiting to release something until you have a bigger market willing to spend for it is a good move.

-21st made good products but made several bad decisions that have ultimately proved to be its undoing. The fact that quality control was basically left uncorrected for years was incredible. The Walmart deal was never going to work, 21st could never sell enough there to make that company happy. That, combined with poor distrbution on Walmart's part, led to the collaspe of the company. One must also factor in the attention given to repaints over new releases. Although repaints were easy and provided new schemes and put merchandise in the stores, it is the same model under that paint. The lack of new releases certainly hurt interest and I think people who picked these up at Walmart just lost interest when they saw nothing new show up. They deserve credit for expanding the scale as they did, but in the end, they failed to continue the lineup in a healthy matter. The dabbling in 1/144 and 1/48 seemed to me to be a desperate attempt to keep product in Walmart and generate sales. The future of the company is in doubt, and no one actually knows what is happening. It does no good to worry or speculate about it.

-Jason made it very clear on collectorsaccess that he stayed away from our board because of members bothering him and being critical of him and the actions of his company. I respect his opinion, it must get tiresome to read all the demands of models people want that his company can't possibly produce all at once. Yet, despite him saying that and posting a positive update on his products, people are once again demanding things above and beyond the scope of what his company can do at this time. Admiral is working hard on the Dauntless and then the Skyraider. They do not have the resources for an A-10 right now. BBI may, and its their choice to decide if they do it or not. Jason told you flat out the market and the cost does not support the A-10 at this time. I believe him and he has no reason to lie. He owns a business, and he must do what will serve his business best. He knows the collectors want the A-10 and the F-4. I believe he will do his best to make them happen. There are no hidden agendas, no secret alliances between companies and both are biding their time for a better day to return to the action.

-Pickelhaube said it best, everyone needs to take a deep breath and calm down a little bit. There are plenty of wonderful things in this hobby to keep it going. We should all be thankful these large models lasted as long as they did and we got as many wonderful pieces as we did. I never thought I'd see a 1/18 Blue Angels F-18 or a 1/18 F-104. Treasure the collection you have, pick up a spare and do a custom and diorama for an existing model you have. As much as I enjoy collecting, there are several other important things in life. This is just a hobby, and it's not something to get so excited or upset about. It should be something to be enjoyed and valued.

Corey