Bad News from SmallJoes

Panzer · Post by **Panzer** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:13 pm

21st Century may pull through it. They have reduced inventory before, maybe the cash influx will help them release some of the items that were already in the works. They probably will have to deal with small retailers than the large stores. If they really wanted to succeed they would have had an internet store with all the products they had in inventory. They would have made more money off each item.

GooglyDoogly · Post by **GooglyDoogly** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:36 pm

Panzer wrote:21st Century may pull through it. They have reduced inventory before, maybe the cash influx will help them release some of the items that were already in the works. They probably will have to deal with small retailers than the large stores. If they really wanted to succeed they would have had an internet store with all the products they had in inventory. They would have made more money off each item.

They used to have an internet store. It didn't work.

vmf214 · Post by **vmf214** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:47 pm

Yeah but that was early on before 1/18 really took off. 2003 is when they started placing those whiteout stickers over their website info on some of the boxes. Have several that way.
During the heyday of 21st say 2005-2007, they'd done nicely I think.

GooglyDoogly · Post by **GooglyDoogly** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:55 pm

Maybe they didn't want to compete with other e-tailers who is also carrying their products. If I was a small e-tailer, I'd be miffed if I end up competing with the company whose product I'm selling.

I dunno. 21st has always been weird as a company. I still can't believe their 1/6th line folded during the height of the 1/6th hobby.

Now this.

vmf214 · Post by **vmf214** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:59 pm

That's a pretty good point.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:03 pm

vmf214 wrote:
VMF115 wrote:e mail WM do something......
Geez get off that, there is already plenty of threads dedicated to single handedly saving the day with 21st and wm. You don't know what I've "done"...write the freakin' letters, send the emails, and get over it.

<center><a href="http://s418.photobucket.com/albums/pp26 ... t=soap.gif" target="_blank"><img src="http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp26 ... s/soap.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a></center>

MG-42 · Post by **MG-42** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:08 pm

->>>------>

..... Yes , but we need to doooooo somzing ! ! !

Mitch v MG

vmf214 · Post by **vmf214** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:12 pm

VMF115 wrote:
vmf214 wrote: Geez get off that, there is already plenty of threads dedicated to single handedly saving the day with 21st and wm. You don't know what I've "done"...write the freakin' letters, send the emails, and get over it.

<center><a href="http://s418.photobucket.com/albums/pp26 ... t=soap.gif" target="_blank"><img src="http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp26 ... s/soap.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a></center>

grunt1 · Post by **grunt1** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:12 pm

The guys that work there have pretty much honed one skill over the past ten years. If they can't make 21C viable as a company due to too much debt or something, they'll likely end up doing something similar for another company or branch out on their own like Roy appears to be doing.

Be neat if a few of them ended up at FoV.

The more likely risk to XD would be if they switch scales, or go non-military for a while having due to a non-compete agreement or simply from having a bad taste in their mouth for how things ended.

I can see the company potentially going away, but for those that work there, their interest in history, toys, etc.. is a bug that bites for life as most of you already know..

PanzerArm · Post by **PanzerArm** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:08 pm

I'll just paste what I wrote in the 1/32 Scale -N- Smaller Forum.

"The Small Joes' post is bologne. If by "Liquidating their Arizona Warehouse," they mean Monkey Depot (Which is in Arizona), is liquidating their warehouse so they don't have to pay the rent on it anymore (See my post in the here: viewtopic.php?t=15449), then they are sadly mistaken.

Monkey Depot is in no way affiliated with 21st's logistics and supply system. MD just needs to cut their budget a little so they can stay around. When I spoke with the owner of Monkey Depot on the topic of their continued business with 21st, he said that this sale had nothing to do with them no longer carrying 21st because 21st was going out of business, or anything along those lines. He said they wil continue to sell 21st, and had heard nothing about 21st going under. They sold the stuff at the prices we saw to clear out of an extra building they don't wish to occupy anymore.

I wouldn't put any weight behind anything small joes is saying on the matter."

-Kevin

CENT-ONE · Post by **CENT-ONE** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:42 pm

There's definitely some logic in what PanzerArm is saying. If 21st had any plans to stay in the game, or to ever in the future re-enter, it would make absolutely no sense for them to be giving away product like this through MD since it's guaranteed to screw over and piss off every single other retailer they deal with.

On the other hand I really can't imagine any small retailer having 500 or so panthers (and lots and lots of everything else) in stock inventory.

Who knows what's really going on with 21st (it's always been a huge mystery since day one over there). I'll just enjoy the MD deals while they last and keep my fingers crossed that 21st is alive and well and the KT is just delayed by Chinese New Year Holiday shipping and will be on my shelf next month!

coreystinson · Post by **coreystinson** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:26 pm

For the record guys, I had nothing in the mailing that we haven't already been discussing here for days. This was mainly some news for my customers that don't regularly follow this or other discussion forums.

I'd also like to emphasize that I have no "inside info" from 21st Century. Just making observations based on what we're all seeing.

coreystinson · Post by **coreystinson** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:30 pm

PanzerArm wrote:I'll just paste what I wrote in the 1/32 Scale -N- Smaller Forum.

"The Small Joes' post is bologne.

No, it isn't bologna. I don't think you are paying attention to what is going on _or_ to what I have said. MD is very likely liquidating the 21st Century warehouse a truckload at a time. That is why you are seeing a bunch of one thing pop up, get sold, then something else shows up.

I don't believe for a second that Monkey Depot was holding onto that much inventory and just decided to liquidate it at rock-bottom prices.

I'll eat my hat if I'm not right about this.

hworth18 · Post by **hworth18** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:35 pm

coreystinson wrote:
No, it isn't bologna. I don't think you are paying attention to what is going on _or_ to what I have said. MD is very likely liquidating the 21st Century warehouse a truckload at a time. That is why you are seeing a bunch of one thing pop up, get sold, then something else shows up.

I don't believe for a second that Monkey Depot was holding onto that much inventory and just decided to liquidate it at rock-bottom prices.

I'll eat my hat if I'm not right about this.

I agree.. I have a hard time believing that MD has a warehouse full of 200+ 88 anti-tank guns and probably that many Panther repaints and just decided to fire-sale them for pennies on the dollar. It doesn't make sense. And I can see MD keeping their source of product confidential until things are said and done.

coreystinson · Post by **coreystinson** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:39 pm

aferguson wrote:all that email represents is smalljoes take on things...

Correct.

aferguson wrote:plus he is creating an opportunity to sell off some of his 21c stock.

Yes, but I'm not trying to B.S. anyone. It's a fact that once this stuff is gone it's gone. I am simply providing my customers with a heads-up.

aferguson wrote: It really doesnt' tell us anything we don't already know.

Correct.

aferguson wrote: Maybe 21c has more than one warehouse

They do. They also have one at their home office in California, although I believe the main logistics operation is/was out of Arizona.

It makes perfect sense that they would want to consolidate back to one warehouse in difficult times, but that still doesn't answer the question as to why so much is being dumped so quickly, and so cheaply.

Post by **aferguson** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:44 pm

well, if they were really going under you think they'd be doing the same thing from the california warehouse as well. And badcat, or somebody, would be deep discounting as well.

Since they're not, it may be a safe assumption that the arizona warehouse has a small(er) stock of items that 21c needs to move fast, whether to raise some quick cash or just get it out of there before they have to move it out onto the street, as their lease with the warehouse may be expiring or something.

It makes little sense for them to have 2 warehouses at a time when they are producing nothing and their income is close to zilch. Just keeping the cali warehouse makes a lot of sense since it is close to home.

So this may well be nothing more than crisis management on the part of the management at 21c.

FieroDude · Post by **FieroDude** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:44 pm

Especially the pattern of things "suddenly" showing up as they go through the warehouse. An unexpected warehouse find may be one or two pieces, at best a case of 4. Not hundreds. Especially not in the day and age of computerized inventory. Factor in that only the 21st stuff is marked down so dramatically - I haven't seen King and Country figures for $5 or FOV 1/32 vehicles for $10.

While I suspect the only one who truly knows what is going on at 21st is 21st themselves, what we are seeing is pretty typical of a liquidation sale. Does it mean that 21st is going out of business? Maybe. Or maybe they are trying to save money and eliminate a secondary warehouse facility and raise some quick cash in the process to avoid going into bankruptcy. If they DO remain afloat, I suspect it may be a while until we see anything new or even hear anything. Time to restructure, find some investors or partners, and time to get back on track - which, with the current economy, could be a couple years.

Hopefully someone from 21st will have the courtesy to clear things up soon, like TKO or Roy used to on occasion, but I am not holding my breath - with both of them gone, I view it is as pretty unlikely.

coreystinson · Post by **coreystinson** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:47 pm

aferguson wrote:well, if they were really going under you think they'd be doing the same thing from the california warehouse as well. And badcat, or somebody, would be deep discounting as well.

Maybe they don't have anything left there to speak of. Truthfully, very little that we ordered shipped from California. I am not sure what their motivation was to run certain logistics out of California vs. the Arizona location, but pretty much everything shipped out of AZ.

aferguson wrote: So this may well be nothing more than crisis management on the part of the management at 21c.

Could be, I know I'd certainly prefer that to a situation where they actually went out of business.

hworth18 · Post by **hworth18** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:09 pm

Well, Lets recap....

1) 21st lays off its entire R&D dept and keeps no-one on but a skeleton crew. (This is a fact)
2) 21st has lost Walmart, its largest customer.
3) 21st didn't make it at Target, it's obvious Walmart replacement.
4) Restocks of 21st product are few and far between at Toys R Us when restocks should be aplenty by now.
5) Monkey Depot somehow gets ahold of a ton of new product and fire-sales it probably way below wholesale prices.

Pretty self-explanitory to me..

Sabrefan · Post by **Sabrefan** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:18 pm

And the 21st Century website has not been updated in months. I wonder why they even keep that thing on the net?

FieroDude · Post by **FieroDude** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:26 pm

I believe TKO's company hosts the website. I know he used to be responsible for maintaining it. Could be the bills for hosting it are paid up for a while yet - just no one to make updates (and apparently nothing to update).

Booga · Post by **Booga** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:19 pm

hworth18 wrote:Well, Lets recap....

1) 21st lays off its entire R&D dept and keeps no-one on but a skeleton crew. (This is a fact)
2) 21st has lost Walmart, its largest customer.
3) 21st didn't make it at Target, it's obvious Walmart replacement.
4) Restocks of 21st product are few and far between at Toys R Us when restocks should be aplenty by now.
5) Monkey Depot somehow gets ahold of a ton of new product and fire-sales it probably way below wholesale prices.

Pretty self-explanitory to me..

More bad news, i went to my TRU today and asked the Manager if they were going to restock XD and he checked and said they were discontinued.

Dauntless · Post by **Dauntless** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:24 pm

Wish I coulda got one of them there Panzer Camp Wagons.
Imagine a whole slew of them rollin' across them there hills, and when they git all tuckered out, why they can git some shut-eye in the back.

Whoops wrong thread...sorry pay no nevermind.

GooglyDoogly · Post by **GooglyDoogly** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:42 pm

aferguson wrote:well, if they were really going under you think they'd be doing the same thing from the california warehouse as well. And badcat, or somebody, would be deep discounting as well.

You have to remember that 1/18th scale is not Monkey Depot's bread and butter. So even if there's a "California" warehouse, I doubt badcat or other etailers whose primary products are 21st Century toys would be liquidating them at rock bottom prices...especially when they could put them on Ebay or in a private reserve, or something.

pcsguy88 · Post by **pcsguy88** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:04 am

Response from a local Etailer friend when asked about 21st Century:

"We have no reason to believe that 21st C is going out of business - although they do seem to be focusing most of their product lines into the mass merchandise stores and almost eliminating any distribution whatsoever to the small, online dealers. We decided a while back to discontinue carrying their product line and reduced prices for clearance at that time. We're guessing (although we have no way to know for sure) that Monkey Depot decided to do the same - they have just decided to reduce prices well below cost - probably to move the merchandise out of their warehouse more quickly."

Small Scale Military Headquarters

Bad News from SmallJoes

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Re: 21st

* Is this really the END ?