Pak 40 Question

RA5BS · Post by **RA5BS** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:33 pm

I have a photo in a book which shows a Russian 76mm field gun being towed by horses. How many horses would it take to tow a Pak40? I think using PTE horses for this might make a neat Eastern Front diorama and I want an idea how many I need to buy.

Post by **aferguson** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:53 pm

probably ideally 8 but 6 could be used in a shortage.

AMERICAN_GRENADIER · Post by **AMERICAN_GRENADIER** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:30 pm

The recommended horse power for
a 10.5cm I.FH18 howitzer with its limber was 6 horses.
the pak-40 was almost half the wieght. so maybe 4 horses?

Post by **aferguson** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:48 pm

that's it? Even medium WWI artillery pieces used 8 horses typically and 6 in a pinch....4 sounds awfully low. I would go with 6 myself.

Ask on www.missing-lynx.com

You'll get the right answer for sure. Neat idea, i may do i myself with a bunch of IJ horses i got on discount...

AMERICAN_GRENADIER · Post by **AMERICAN_GRENADIER** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:52 pm

Im only quoting an old german artillery manual. im sure as halftracks where in short supply so where horses? i have pictures if i had a working scanner i would post them.

Post by **aferguson** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 9:03 pm

it would actually be pretty rare for pak 40's to be horse drawn. Anti tank guns usually had motor transport assigned to them because they often had to move positions quickly. It was mostly light and medium artillery that was horse drawn.

AMERICAN_GRENADIER · Post by **AMERICAN_GRENADIER** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 9:05 pm

I would agree with that! I didnt mean i had pictures of a horse drawn Pak-40. ive scanned 4 books now while watching tv and i cant find a single picture.

chunks · Post by **chunks** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 9:09 pm

Still ya never know. In the book "German Infantry Carts, Army Field Wagons, Army Sleds 1900-1945" there's a photo of a field wagon being pulled down a road by a team of two horses and 10 men!! No photos of the PaK 40 that I found though.

Post by **aferguson** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 9:26 pm

i know at Stalingrad there were pak 38's towed by horses...until they ate them all.

And upon further inspection 4 horses would be fine...

RA5BS · Post by **RA5BS** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:39 am

Thanks for the replies. I recognize that horses towing a Pak40 might be a rarity; probably an expedient measure. Still, it would be an interesting diorama- lacking a proper German field gun to use instead.
As far as draft animals go, well, the local Big Lots has five PTE horses at $3.00 apiece plus one lonely camel at the same price. The latter might look a bit out of place on a Russian steppe though. Maybe the camel could pack shells for my 88? Hmm...

STUKA · Post by **STUKA** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:14 am

horses could have been used - Ive yet to find a picture -
on the eastern front most horses brought by the germans were killed in 41 most from exhaustion - officers used them -
pak crews - early on used french chenilrtte prime movers - but most of those did not make it to the crimea.
The soldiers would use russian vehicles over their own due to lack of parts. after 43 many german anti tank guns were towed by leaseloan us vehicles that the russians would leave behind.

I have read refferences were pak crews would actually pull their own gun with harnesses until they found something abandoned they could use. But the harnesses they used to pull it were originslly for horses.

Post by **aferguson** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 1:02 pm

From missing lynx:

"With no caissson (or whatever the extra set of wheels under the end of the trails is called), there would be no way to hook the horses to the hitch and keep it off the ground. It's possible that such wheels existed, but I've never seen them."

That's a good point and one i had not considered....

Slightly off topic, has anyone built this kit?

http://e-hobbyland.com/liac.html

says it's 1/16, which would look too big but sometimes the quoted scales of these older kits (this one is from the 60's) are not accurate, so maybe it's smaller (grasping at straws).

RA5BS · Post by **RA5BS** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:20 pm

Actually, the point about the hitch/ harnessing is a good one and had passed through my mind already as I assumed there had to be a way to get the trails off the ground. A set of wheels would make sense but if the Missing-lynx folks have not seen any photos of such a set up, a diorama would have to be pure conjecture I suppose.

AMERICAN_GRENADIER · Post by **AMERICAN_GRENADIER** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:17 pm

RA5BS wrote:Actually, the point about the hitch/ harnessing is a good one and had passed through my mind already as I assumed there had to be a way to get the trails off the ground. A set of wheels would make sense but if the Missing-lynx folks have not seen any photos of such a set up, a diorama would have to be pure conjecture I suppose.

it called a limber basically a 2 wheel cart used on almost all artillery pieces. im sure they could have if needed used one on a pack 40

popeye357 · Post by **popeye357** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:26 pm

"i know at Stalingrad there were pak 38's towed by horses...until they ate them all."
I cant believe those bastards ate all those cool guns!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by **aferguson** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:50 pm

no, the horses ate the pak 38's so they wouldn't have to pull them anymore.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:57 pm

No the Germans ate the Pak 40's after they ran out of horse to eat.

Post by **aferguson** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:47 pm

ok, so now it looks like it was done. Here's the thread:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/me ... wn+Pak+40-