Dragon Armour: The slippery slope

ltcbj · Post by **ltcbj** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:02 pm

I remember when Dragon first came out with what they lauded as the first all die-cast highly detailed 1/72 scale made models. I was very excited and bought up a load of their earliest efforts.

I was a bit disappointed at the time, what, six years ago or so, that they weren't, in fact, all die cast. The Tigers had plastic hulls with metal turrets. The Panthers, I thought oddly, had metal hulls and plastic turrets. This gave the Panthers significantly more heft than their litter mates, but what the heck.... The only real problem was the tendency for the little tabs on the Panther turret to break off.

So I was just "playing" with my Dragon Armour, an early Panther (maybe a 60010 or 11) and a later Tiger, one of the Zimmerattii, a number 231, and the weight difference is extreme. I note that the Tiger no longer has a metal turret but it is now plastic. (Okay, I haven't handled these in a while.)

Question Time:
1) Are all the Tigers now all plastic, all the time? I was thinking maybe the turret was plastic only for the ones with zimmeritt.
2) Are the Panthers still made with metal hulls or are they all plastic now? I note that the company+ of StugIVs (the last of my purchases at the outrageous prices) are all plastic.
3) Are any of the Dragon Armour offerings die-cast anymore?

I have supplemented my Tigers and Panthers with several dozen Admiral PzIIIs (Hs, Ls &Ms (can anybody find turret boxes for the "H"s?) which I really like because they ARE die-cast and a half dozen FoV PzIV-Js. and of course several hundred varied Airfix 1/72 troopers of many eras.

Tshintl · Post by **Tshintl** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:03 pm

Dragon has been releasing all plastic Dragon Armor models for quite some time now. That's because Dragon Armor tanks come from Dragon Models 1/72 plastic kits, they're just built and painted for you.

Model kit builders complained so much when Dragon used metal parts that they switched to only plastic, which is why you now only have plastic in your Dragon Armor. The model kit market is just much larger than the diecast collectors market so the modelers won out.

Companies like Hobby Master and FOV can continue to use metal since they're products are only made for collectors. They don't sell them unbuilt for modelers so don't have to try and meet in the middle some where for two very different markets.

skypirate · Post by **skypirate** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:39 pm

I've been collecting the Dragon Armor since the beginning. Recently I started buying some of their 1/72 Warbirds. I find it ironic the planes are built like tanks and their tanks are built light as planes.

Seriously, the planes are HEAVY! They feel like they're almost solid metal.

As for the tanks, they're mostly plastic now, with IMO, pointless metal weights added in the hulls. I don't really care as long as there's quality and durability. Still, it's a little hard to swallow that six years ago, I was paying $9 dollars for an all metal tank and now I'm paying $20+ for a mostly plastic tank.

The zimmermit tanks' turrets seem too thin and fragile. I've run into a few with broken or defective barrels. It's a little disappointing when you're afraid to handle them.

Despite all the complaining, I do really like Dragon's quality and detail. And I typically prefer their products over competitors.

ltcbj · Post by **ltcbj** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:31 am

I think that Dragon has the best detail.

But this series was supposed to be for collectors. SUPPOSED to have been die-cast.

Why the heck would a model builder even want a pre-built model anyway? I thought the whole purpose of modeling was to build it yourself. I really don't understand how some model builders could complain about a product they don't even want and force a company to come to their will. And if this was the case then why didn't Dragon change their planes as well?

I thought that HM was making plastic models from the get go. And why haven't they bent to the modeling lobby?

FoV just doesn't have the detail Dragon does although I like their PzIV-J, but only because of 1) the price and2) it's the PzIV-J around.

demonclaw · Post by **demonclaw** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:36 am

ltcbj wrote:
Why the heck would a model builder even want a pre-built model anyway? I thought the whole purpose of modeling was to build it yourself. I really don't understand how some model builders could complain about a product they don't even want and force a company to come to their will. And if this was the case then why didn't Dragon change their planes as well?

The pre-build models are made by the parts as the model kits and the model builders don't want any metal parts

Tshintl · Post by **Tshintl** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:01 am

ltcbj wrote:
Why the heck would a model builder even want a pre-built model anyway? I thought the whole purpose of modeling was to build it yourself. I really don't understand how some model builders could complain about a product they don't even want and force a company to come to their will. And if this was the case then why didn't Dragon change their planes as well?

I thought that HM was making plastic models from the get go. And why haven't they bent to the modeling lobby?

I think you might have misunderstood what I was saying. Dragon Models Ltd. is the parent company of Dragon Armor as well as several other product lines. Another product line of theirs are 1/72 plastic kits, kits as in they come in several pieces that require being built and painted.

It's these plastic kits that Dragon Models Ltd. produces that Dragon Armor comes from. Dragon takes their plastic unbuilt kits, builds them, paints them, and sells them under the Dragon Armor name. But they originally start out as plastic kits, the same plastic kits model builders buy and build themselves. One line comes unbuilt, one line comes built, but the parts are all the same. They're using the same parts to serve two different markets.

Modelers don't typically buy Dragon Armor, they buy the plastic unbuilt kits and build them themselves. Dragon started including metal (diecast) hulls and turrets with some of the plastic unbuilt kits and modelers hated them (this was at the same time they used diecast metal in their Dragon Armor line). Metal is hard to work with, plastic is not. Hence the reason model builders didn't like the diecast metal parts, plastic is easier to customize and holds more detail then metal.

Review after review criticized the metal diecast hulls and turrets as well as modelers complained so much that Dragon had to revert back to using all plastic. They did this because again both the Dragon Armor line and Dragon plastic kit line are 1 in the same. The model building market is much larger than the diecast collectors market so they won out. Dragon tries to save money by using the same parts to serve both markets, that's why they don't make different parts for each. FOV and Hobby Master can use diecast metal because they only make products for one market; the collectors market.

As posted above, there's usually a metal weight inside the Dragon Armor tank and I have seen some with a metal chassis, but no more diecast metal hulls and turrets. I know nothing of their planes, but the info about their tanks comes from one of their distributors and Dragon themselves which was posted on several modeling forums a couple years back when the switch over took place.

ltcbj · Post by **ltcbj** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:05 am

demonclaw wrote:
ltcbj wrote:
Why the heck would a model builder even want a pre-built model anyway? I thought the whole purpose of modeling was to build it yourself. I really don't understand how some model builders could complain about a product they don't even want and force a company to come to their will. And if this was the case then why didn't Dragon change their planes as well?

The pre-build models are made by the parts as the model kits and the model builders don't want any metal parts

So are you saying that the model kits and the 'Dragon Armour pre-builds' are all made on the same production line, only the pre-builds then get put together and painted up while the kits are thrown into their boxes, still sprued?

If this was the case why would the airplane model builders lack the clout of the (and would think that there are a lot fewer of) the tank model builders? Or, why would airplane modelers not care about being forced to build metal models? Would the tank modelers have minded less if the DA had been ALL metal?

ltcbj · Post by **ltcbj** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:16 am

Tshinti:

I understand that the plastic and metal models are largely the same parts. I don't think that the price difference between the Dragon Armour pre-builds and the kits is that great. Given the addition of the plastic case and the prebuilt model must have a geometrically higher production cost than the kit.

The argument that modelers complained about metal parts (hulls or turrets) being part of their "kit" may be true but for manufacturing is too easily solved by running all plastic for some production runs and then running the die-cast for others. That would be an easy solution and would have maintained the integrity of the DA line.

The fact is that I don't care what the convoluted reasoning may have been behind the decision to make the DA all-plastic, all the time. Or even that it was a simple (and from their perspective certainly understandable) decision to save money by cheapening and lowering production standards. I simply am disappointed at Dragon's discarding their original concept and incidentally find those little metal weights in the hull to be an absurdity.

Tshintl · Post by **Tshintl** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:52 am

ltcbj wrote: So are you saying that the model kits and the 'Dragon Armour pre-builds' are all made on the same production line, only the pre-builds then get put together and painted up while the kits are thrown into their boxes, still sprued?

That is correct. I've even seen some Dragon Armor tanks with indentations on the road wheels where they had been originally connected to the sprue. It should have been sanded off before being put together.

ltcbj wrote: If this was the case why would the airplane model builders lack the clout of the (and would think that there are a lot fewer of) the tank model builders? Or, why would airplane modelers not care about being forced to build metal models? Would the tank modelers have minded less if the DA had been ALL metal?

I can't speak about the planes as I haven't any interest in them so don't hang in those circles to hear what is being discussed. But I do know that any metal is a bad thing as far as tank model builders are concerned (with the exception of laser etched parts). If the whole tank was metal, that would be even worse.

ltcbj · Post by **ltcbj** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:06 am

While I certainly agree (and consider it obvious) that any thing produced from an injection mold, which both the DA and kits ultimately derive) will have had a sprue somewhere in their past, usually several.

Be that as it is it strikes me that hand building, painting and putting together from a kit, then sticking into a case produces either 1) A LOSS LEADER or 2) a significant reduction of profit per item.

I did a quickie search to find a Dragon 1/72 tank kit. I came up with (http://store.spruebrothers.com/shared/S ... googlebase) which is a Panther G with 4 Crewmen, for about the price of a DA pre-built.

HOW can Dragon afford to sell prebuilts at the same price as unbuilt kits? There is something wrong here. At least if they are both off the same production line.

ltcbj · Post by **ltcbj** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:13 am

I too do not build or buy airplanes but saying that one doesn't know what the stand of airplane builders is on this issue is sort of a cop-out. I know I wouldn't want to build an airplane with a plastic fuselage and heavy die-cast wings.

Nor am I sure of how I would put together a die-cast two part tank hull or seven piece turret of a tank. I'd hate to have to do tiny little solderings or welds. An all die cast airplane kit would be a heck of a proposition.

I presume that the die-cast airplanes are run on a separate production line or at different times from the plastic. They could have done the same for the tanks....

demonclaw · Post by **demonclaw** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:09 pm

ltcbj wrote:
Be that as it is it strikes me that hand building, painting and putting together from a kit, then sticking into a case produces either 1) A LOSS LEADER or 2) a significant reduction of profit per item.

HOW can Dragon afford to sell prebuilts at the same price as unbuilt kits? There is something wrong here. At least if they are both off the same production line.

They probably make a lot on every prebuilt model (otherwise they wouldn't be selling or producing so many) but not as much as they do on their kits (since all they have to do is make the plastic parts) .

ltcbj · Post by **ltcbj** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:26 pm

I have to assume that they make these on an assembly line, much if not all of the work done by machine. I don't think even mind numb automaton state factory workers could be as standardized in making these things.

But yes. When your pay scale is 25c/hour and there is nothing much to buy with all that money their costs are probably fairly low.

Burt I really can't see why they would make low profit items and I certainly think that the profit on those kits must be extraordinary. Certainly if they were losing money on the pre-builts they would be OOP in no time.

GooglyDoogly · Post by **GooglyDoogly** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:50 pm

The Dragon 1/72 pre-built tank models are basically the "dumbed down" counterparts of their 1/72 kits.

They're made by the same company from this same factory, but the difference between a pre-built Dragon tank, and a kit built by a fairly decent modeler is like night and day.

ltcbj · Post by **ltcbj** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:05 pm

I just want to know why they really discontinued the die-cast when their original expressed intent was to create an all die-cast series of armored vehicles.

Now we have just another series of plastic toys made for the rich.

GooglyDoogly · Post by **GooglyDoogly** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:50 pm

ltcbj wrote:I just want to know why they really discontinued the die-cast when their original expressed intent was to create an all die-cast series of armored vehicles.

Now we have just another series of plastic toys made for the rich.

There's really no secret to it. Modelers don't like diecast because it's not as good in terms of detail compared to a plastic injection mold.

So Dragon obliged, and in turn, saved them more money in the process.

Dragon has realized that most people buy their 1/72 armor not because they're diecast, but because they're nicely made collectible tanks. And no, it's not the diecast aspect that made them collectible. There's plenty of diecast tanks out there that's poorly made, or poorly researched, hence they're not as popular as DA.

People still buy 1/72 pre-built DA despite the fact that they're all plastic now. So Dragon keeps on doing it.

The modeling community is happy, and for the most part, even the pre-built community is happy as well, because of the amount of models Dragon has been producing. So in the eyes of Dragon, everything's fine and dandy.

Tshintl · Post by **Tshintl** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:52 pm

ltcbj wrote:I just want to know why they really discontinued the die-cast when their original expressed intent was to create an all die-cast series of armored vehicles.

You've already been told why Dragon no longer uses diecast in their DA line. If that explanation is not good enough or you want to hear the same thing come directly from them, why not just go directly to the source and ask Dragon Models yourself?

ltcbj · Post by **ltcbj** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:58 pm

Let me rephrase.

I don't care why they changed. I just want to vent over their doing so.

I liked the die-cast, and the more the better. I just see another case of a company that advertises that they are going to provide something new and then reverts to the same old same old in a comparatively short time.

And as the product becomes more cheaply made it goes up in price.

AMERICAN_GRENADIER · Post by **AMERICAN_GRENADIER** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 8:57 am

its not true that they use the kits and have people put them together. thats crazy!!! Its a totally different factory. they use some of the same molds for some parts thats true. but the assembly process is totally different. Ive talked with Dragon on many ocassions and even have watch factory video footage. It is not model kits.

AMERICAN_GRENADIER · Post by **AMERICAN_GRENADIER** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:30 am

one more point
the amount of diecast has gone down as China has raised the cost of production. everyone is trying to keep quality up and costs down.
21c has stopped making cold steel for that very reason

ltcbj · Post by **ltcbj** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:45 am

AMERICAN_GRENADIER wrote:its not true that they use the kits and have people put them together. thats crazy!!! Its a totally different factory. they use some of the same molds for some parts thats true. but the assembly process is totally different. Ive talked with Dragon on many ocassions and even have watch factory video footage. It is not model kits.

THANK YOU.

This is what I thought all along and the story about kit builders being unhappy really sounded like b.s. but I couldn't be sure and did not want to question/doubt someone speaking with supposed "authority". So we are back to Dragon simply cheapening their product because they can.

Terrific.

Why do the planes still have a high die-cast content or is that a story too?

AMERICAN_GRENADIER · Post by **AMERICAN_GRENADIER** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:35 am

I think they are really trying to keep prices down. I really like Dragon 1/72 armor and warbirds. I must admit i really would like more diecast. But ill take what they make aslong as its a nice piece. Ive been buying more hobby master lately. They have really been making some little done vehicles. China has continued to raise manufactoring cost across the board on all products made there. Thats why Vietnam has begun pushing for some of that business.

Tshintl · Post by **Tshintl** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:08 am

Deleted and reposted below.

ltcbj · Post by **ltcbj** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:43 am

Why would the modeling community complain about things they don't have any dealing with?

Tshintl · Post by **Tshintl** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:12 pm

AMERICAN_GRENADIER,

I don't think there was ever a claim that the same factory that turns out plastic sprues for kits is also used to build prebuilt models. I would imagine Dragon has several factories dealing with the various lines they manufacture.

Maybe we’re talking about the same thing but in totally different language. I’ve received confirmation from both Dragon Models USA and Dragon Models Ltd. that the parts used in their plastic kit line are used in their DA line. It would be foolish to think otherwise when presented with the facts…

Both lines are 1/72 scale
Both lines are plastic
Both lines release the same types of AFV's (and tactical markings and from the same military units/formations)
Both lines use the same paint schemes (the plastic kit line includes a diagram showing the same paint schemes as used on the DA line)
Both lines have the same dimensions (I’ve dissected a DA Tiger, Panther and Sherman and compared those parts to those included with the plastic kits, they match 100% down to the millimeter)

It would sound quite foolish to say despite everything being identical above, that Dragon would choose to spend more money making the same parts again for their DA line that are already made for the plastic kit line when the parts are already the same in the first place.

They don't go open up a newly sealed plastic kit to start with, but they use the same parts to build the DA line as included with the plastic kit line; wheels, hulls, tracks, turrets, guns, etc. Obviously the metal weight on the inside of DA vehicles isn't included with a plastic kit, nor are the laser etched parts included with plastic kits usually used on DA vehicles. Nor are the holes on the bottom or occasional metal base plate on the DA line put on the plastic kit line. But with these minor exceptions, Dragon does not use two different sets of parts for their plastic kit line and their DA line. Someone said it well earlier, Dragon Armor tanks are the “dumbed” down version of the plastic kits.

Lastly, the discontinuation of diecast metal parts was largely a result of pretty much the entire modeling community complaining about them, this came directly from Liam at Dragon Models. We can go around and around about this but I think I’ll go with what Dragon has said about it. The tooling for the diecast parts were already made on a few different AFV’s so they could have continued at least using diecast for those in the DA line, but they chose to ultimately save money and use plastic instead. No one is debating that. It saves Dragon money to keep most of the parts the same in the DA and plastic kit line so it makes sense that’s what they would do. My point is that the complaints from the modeling crowd about the plastic kits are what pushed them in that direction (certainly other contributing factors as well). They want to keep as many of the parts the same for both lines to save money, the larger of the two markets doesn’t want diecast parts, so that’s what they go with. Saves them money, some people complain about the lack of diecast in the DA line but it still remains extremely popular, so it’s a win/win for Dragon.