[+] = (S-2) Elefant ?

[aferguson]

actually the ferdinand/elefant was an excellent vehicle, especially for defense. The ferdinands were used incorrectly at kursk and as a result many were lost in minefields (that should have been cleared prior to launching the assault but weren't). Contrary to popular belief only 1 ferdinand was put out of action by russian infantry at kursk. The others were stopped by mines, enemy guns hitting tracks or running gear and breakdowns.

The lack of a bow machine gun was an oversight but not that big a deal, as the vehicle was intended for defensive use, with it's fabulous 88 gun and virtually impenetrable frontal armour. It's kill ratio during kursk and after was something like 10:1.

It was poor offensively, as are most tank destroyers, quite slow and heavy, which is why it went out of production in favour of lighter, faster tank destroyers.

And it is quite common to mix up the names ferdinand and elefant; even well researched works make that mistake sometimes. The elefant did come later, however and was a slightly modified ferdinand.

[MG-42]

* Thanks "aferg" ...... Well ,.. it was quite confusing to me , researching some a this stuff , and it all had me convinced.

........ I meant no offense @ all , to you Scott "ostketten" & "GooglyDoogly" .


.................. Sheesh ! ! !




Mitch v MG

[PanzerArm]

Ok, it did have its perks, but I am one of those Monday morning historians who believe the resources/man-power would've been better spent elsewhere. I wonder how many panzer IV L/48s Nibelungenwerke could've made with the material and time instead of the 90 ferdinand and then their subsequent upgrades. I just plain don't like the vehicle, too slow, too heavy, too expensive, more of a liability than an effective weapon system should be. That's not saying I didn't buy one though


-Kevin

[ostketten]

And it is quite common to mix up the names ferdinand and elefant; even well researched works make that mistake

Indeed. You'll see it all over the internet, and in otherwise well researched works as you noted. Part of the problem stems from the relatively minor external changes between Ferdinand and Elefant that make it difficult to distinguish for casual observers, and the fact that early in it's existence some troops in the field apparently dubbed the beast "Elefant", a name we know didn't become official until later on. At any rate, I'm glad we can put this issue to rest and get back on track (no pun intended). Overall I'm pretty happy with my FOV Elefant, and I wouldn't mind seeing another version in Action grade.

[olifant]

I am committing the ultimate internet sin of not double checking my quotes and sources, but I think in Carrel's "Scorched Earth" he talks about the Kursk Ferdinand crews desperately firing their SMGs through the barrel of the 88MM trying to fight off the swarms of Russian troops. Anyone else heard this?

[ostketten]

Anyone else heard this?

Yeah, I believe I have Oli.... though I can't recall just where at the moment. The idea seems a little far fetched, but who knows...?? Carell is an oustanding author, I've got all his titles that have been translated into English. Hitler Moves East is still one of the all time best books ever written on the Russo-German conflict IMHO. Regarding Internet sources... there is a lot of excellent information out there, but there's also quite a bit of garbage as well, and to a certain extent you have to be able to seperate the wheat from the chaff in a manner of speaking, but it can be a daunting task at times.

[aferguson]

yes i've heard the tales of firing machine guns out the main gun barrel too. Pretty hard to believe. How would you aim at small bunches of infantry that way when you can't see where your firing and you can't rapidly pivot the gun? Not to mention you'd probably destroy the inside of the barrel of your main gun, having bullets richet all over the place etc.

There were multiple pistol ports on the ferdinand....why not fire out those instead? Bow machine guns are really only useful for protecting a neighbouring tank, not your own. It only fires forward so infantry could easily approach from the sides or rear. But a neighbouring tank can spray your whole vehicle for you to rid you of enemy infantry. I guess it's possible that firing through the main barrel with a machine gun could have been used to try and protect other friendly vehicles. But you'd be an idiot to send a bunch tanks, any tanks/ sp guns, into battle without friendly infantry support...unless you were doing a blitz run for an encirclement, which ferdinands obviously would not be doing.

There was a long discussion about this once on missing lynx and there was only documented proof of one ferdinand being put out of action by russian infantry. The vulnerability of Ferdinands to infantry assault was probably just a myth, or rumour started by the russians to unnerve german crews.

[Panzer_M]

actually the ferdinand/elefant was an excellent vehicle, especially for defense. The ferdinands were used incorrectly at kursk and as a result many were lost in minefields (that should have been cleared prior to launching the assault but weren't). Contrary to popular belief only 1 ferdinand was put out of action by russian infantry at kursk. The others were stopped by mines, enemy guns hitting tracks or running gear and breakdowns.

The lack of a bow machine gun was an oversight but not that big a deal, as the vehicle was intended for defensive use, with it's fabulous 88 gun and virtually impenetrable frontal armour. It's kill ratio during kursk and after was something like 10:1.

It was poor offensively, as are most tank destroyers, quite slow and heavy, which is why it went out of production in favour of lighter, faster tank destroyers.

And it is quite common to mix up the names ferdinand and elefant; even well researched works make that mistake sometimes. The elefant did come later, however and was a slightly modified ferdinand.

correct, if anything could fault the chassis of the Ferd/Elefant it was the electric planetary drive system porsche designed, it was a good design in itself, but not one for the field when other drive systems could have been used that would have been more familiar to the men in werkshop kompanies...but this goes back to the design of the Tiger(p) and not just the SPGs. As a weapon used in mobile defense, it def outclassed the Nashorn in usefullness.

I want to say the first time the rebuilt elefants show back up for combat is Anzio around late Jan/Feb for Operation Fishfang and Seitensprung..but Italy isn't really tank country, and they did see combat in Poland in Winter '44 and Later in Berlin and Seelow Heights(I am trying to remember if Seelow is fully correct, but I am not 100% on memory with that)