1/18 hurricanes soon from Skyworks

mkxiv · Post by **mkxiv** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:06 pm

Hey Guys,

The Small Scale Forum Group Buy concept is a very interesting idea. I have spoke with Jack from Skyworks and we have come up with the following: First we would start with the Me-163. The price tag would be around $230.00 each for 20pcs. The model would be less detailed than the $350.00 versions including cockpit details, basic 1 color non-weathered paint scheme, and the dolly would be sold separately. The paint scheme would be of the forums choice. A 50% payment would be required once the 20pcs limit is met and the other 50% would be due once the model is ready to ship. This is more or less a test and if it works we will offer the same group discount for other models.

Isaiah Jones
www.militarytoyshop.com

<img src="http://www.jetfly.hu/rovatok/jetfly/hon ... e.jpg"></A>

pickelhaube · Post by **pickelhaube** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:45 pm

Teamski wrote:I feel that it comes down to the money return on an investment. What are the chances that you will get back what you paid on the Hurricane? Not very good.

-Ski

Hey Ski,
I think you have it all wrong. These will be collectables now and in the future. These are limited run. Look at the Spitfires , Fw-190s and Me-109s.
. When these first came out they were stacked to the ceilling at Wal-Mart. I remember buying the Spits on e-bay for about $15. now look at them. These can only increase in price. They are custom built planes after all.

olifant · Post by **olifant** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:20 pm

Great ideas norman and aferg. It is kind of a tough situation. We all want the hobby to continue but don't want to pay high prices for it. Some customizers want to continue the hobby but can't do it at a price point that allows them sales to break even.

Chicken or the egg?

Isaiah, thanks for the great offer. Unfortunately right now I would not be in the market for a ME-163 but that may change in the future. A Hurricane, maybe if the price was right. Are we thinking too small? A run of twenty may help, but what if it was a run of 100-200? If the price could go down enough I think you may get more takers.

Just a thought.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:31 pm

I want a highly detailed one for half the cost….how do we do that?

popeye357 · Post by **popeye357** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:50 pm

Id definitely be in on a 200 piece run!!!

Post by **aferguson** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:02 pm

agreed. A higher piece run is needed, if feasible. Are runs of 50, 100, 200 even do-able?

I think we're onto something here.....we just need to figure it all out and strike the right balance so everyone is happy.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:05 pm

I am in, only if they are highly detailed.

B-29 · Post by **B-29** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:06 pm

VMF115 wrote:I am in, only if they are highly detailed.

Same here.

Birddog · Post by **Birddog** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:27 pm

B-29 wrote:
VMF115 wrote:I am in, only if they are highly detailed.
Same here.

Somehow I don't think your level of detail expectations are going to be satisfied for the price they will sell for even with a higher production run.

I may be wrong but I seriously doubt all the control surfaces will be movable and the landing gear will be fully functioning. The Me163 only has a functioning rudder and detailed cockpit for example. If that's the case, you can more than likely rule out all those little extras like opening gun bays with detail, etc.

Details like that aren't easy to pump out in the first place and add extra cost even with a well tooled production facility.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:33 pm

Just a good detailed cockpit will do fine.

Birddog · Post by **Birddog** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:38 pm

VMF115 wrote:Just a good detailed cockpit will do fine.

That is one area I would hope they don't leave out detail..

olifant · Post by **olifant** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:39 pm

Birddog, you make a great point. If I had to choose between a $400 Hurrican with all the bells and whistles and a $250 Hurricane with no working flaps, aleirons and rudder and removable landing gear I would prefer to go for the plain jane model. I love all the extras we have gotten but lets face it, hanging from the ceiling would we really notice? Just my $.02 worth.

1958Zelda · Post by **1958Zelda** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:40 pm

count me in for 2.

Dauntless · Post by **Dauntless** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:50 pm

I wouldn't mind paying the asking price. I believe if you are going to get one get the best one available.
So I would want the one that is the most detailed. Just how much detail or features I'd still like to know. Or are these things still to be worked out?

Birddog · Post by **Birddog** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:53 pm

olifant wrote:Birddog, you make a great point. If I had to choose between a $400 Hurrican with all the bells and whistles and a $250 Hurricane with no working flaps, aleirons and rudder and removable landing gear I would prefer to go for the plain jane model. I love all the extras we have gotten but lets face it, hanging from the ceiling would we really notice? Just my $.02 worth.

Exactly. I love detail, but I'm for sacrificing a few things here and there that really don't detract from the accurate look of the model. Especially if it:

1. Makes the model more affordable for the manufacturer to consider producing and offer to us at a reasonable price.

2. Give us the subject in 1/18 period.

The only two thing that I'd expect are a detailed functioning cockpit, gear options (plug and play like bbi's 1/32 F-4 will probably give us better, more realistic looking gear), and some ordinance.

pickelhaube · Post by **pickelhaube** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:24 pm

It would be nice to have all the bells and wistles. BUT.
Do you guys have any idea what it would take to just get retract gear out of resin ? First the gear would have to be strenghted with a tube or rod . Then the tube or rod would need a pin to swivle then the swivle socket would have to be reinforced to take the strain from moving. Now we have to worry about the doors same thing swing and support hard points. Well all of this isn't cheap to do. We are not making an R/C plane. The gear is made out of heavy duty wire and you can get Robart struts that look scale. A pair is about $30 . But those are already made.

The thing is this most of the money and time goes into producing the model about 2/3 of the time and money then you have to paint. It would be possible to have everything electric props fully retractable gear moving cowling parts. But every funtion meens more money more money more money.
With all the bells and wistles these things would sell for $7000 and you guys know this is true because there have been several posts on these works of art.

We are doing our best to get more 1/18 projects out there but this is done at a cost. If we could more projects for $40 or $60 a pop. We would but sorry to say that will not happen. Even the big players have moved thousands and thousands of our beloved XD and were are they now? I don't think Jason is ready to retire after his Sabre and Me-262. 21st has probably moved millions of dollars worth of stuff and what kind of finacial state are they in now?

Post by **aferguson** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:28 am

I think the customizers also have to consider borrowing an idea from FOV and offer a more expensive enthusiast grade version of each model and a dumbed down action grade type version. Again, i don't know how feasible this is but i suspect it's practical.

aae83 · Post by **aae83** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:44 am

I'd be in for short run aircraft, even if the detail had to suffer a little, as long as the proportions were basically correct. Maybe a separate detail kit could be offered for those persons wanting the extra level.

The Pegasus planes make for an interesting case study. The models are very simple but convey the overall "impression" of the aircraft: they're immediately recognizable. I haven't seen many postings being overly critical of these models. (Aside: I wonder how much their tooling cost?)

Proportions are the key for me. It has to truly look like the vehicle, or I'm not very interested in it.

The Peg V-1 is a case where the price point justified the purchase. If it had been twice the price I've been much more hesitant to get one as the moldline is so far off the real article.

What would people think if detail levels were comparable to, say, Corgi 1/72 aircraft: proportions correct, panel lines represented, representative cockpit, decent markings, repositionable gear?

aae

Post by **aferguson** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:41 am

A problem i forsee for the built up customs is that they will require large packaging, which will require large shipping costs, further adding to the price.

I think a big way to sell custom planes, will be as kits. That way costs are kept to a minimum and thus sales will be higher. Some people will always want to buy built ups but many of us will be happy to buy kits.

Case in point. Even at the $225 price point for the group purchase Komet, i'm still not going to get one. But if it can be sold for a kit, under $100, now i'm interested. There woud be minimal work on the part of the customizer, preparation of the parts in a very basic way and i would say the vacuform canopy should be sold already cut out, as this can be a tricky task in non-skilled hands, include a sheet of decals and send it off. Many of us on here have enough patience and skill to produce a decent model from a kit like this. Those that don't, have the option still to purchase built ups. Kit purchases can still be done with the 'group order' idea. eg. 20 kit orders needed before the kits start getting produced.

The possibility for the future, with these customs, is fantastic. Ar-234's, Feisler Storchs, He-129's and on and on. If they can all be offered in kit, 'action grade' built up and enthusiast quality built up form then i think the cusomizers will maximize their sales potential and as many happy customers will be created, as possible.

Dauntless · Post by **Dauntless** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:54 am

pickelhaube wrote:It would be nice to have all the bells and wistles. BUT.
Do you guys have any idea what it would take to just get retract gear out of resin ? First the gear would have to be strenghted with a tube or rod . Then the tube or rod would need a pin to swivle then the swivle socket would have to be reinforced to take the strain from moving. Now we have to worry about the doors same thing swing and support hard points. Well all of this isn't cheap to do. We are not making an R/C plane. The gear is made out of heavy duty wire and you can get Robart struts that look scale. A pair is about $30 . But those are already made.

The thing is this most of the money and time goes into producing the model about 2/3 of the time and money then you have to paint. It would be possible to have everything electric props fully retractable gear moving cowling parts. But every funtion meens more money more money more money.
With all the bells and wistles these things would sell for $7000 and you guys know this is true because there have been several posts on these works of art.

We are doing our best to get more 1/18 projects out there but this is done at a cost. If we could more projects for $40 or $60 a pop. We would but sorry to say that will not happen. Even the big players have moved thousands and thousands of our beloved XD and were are they now? I don't think Jason is ready to retire after his Sabre and Me-262. 21st has probably moved millions of dollars worth of stuff and what kind of finacial state are they in now?

I see that kind explains it. Resin is a whole different animal than plastic. We are talking more about a sculpture here, not a 500+ toy.

Jay · Post by **Jay** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:53 pm

Maybe some cottage industry guys could look at a partnership. One group produces basic airframes which look good on a shelf (ie fixed landing gear - up or down, non sliding canopy). While another group produces detail kits like a more detailed cockpit, detailed landing gear. Someone else could aim some decal sheets specifally at the models being produced by the other guys....just a thought.

olifant · Post by **olifant** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:12 pm

Remember that almost all the cost of mass production is in the tooling. You could have a master carver whittle an A-10 out of a solid piece of teak, but the labor would kill you. PH has shown that with a little gumption you can make resin molds but then you hand pour each piece. Top of the food chain is injection molds running six figures plus mounted on half million dollar machines. What needs to be explored is what falls in between.

Perhaps more efficient resin molds that don't make solid parts? Another possibility that would be very inexpensive would be vacuum formed parts. The downside is there is almost NO detail; panel lines would have to be painted or scribed and small resin detail pieces would be a must. It could give us 1/18 planes on the cheap though.

scbvideoboy · Post by **scbvideoboy** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:36 pm

well I'm happy with my Me 163. I just need to tweak it a little and it'll be set.

Not sure if I'll spring for a Hurricane, depends on how soon the extra $$$ dollars come in, but will on a Tony.

Unrealistic would be to have various people doing different parts. Each would want a cut and then profit goes to nothing. It's shame some of these big companies don't already offer cockpit kits, or engine kits in 1/18 like they do for 1/32, 1/35 models.

DH