1:18 planes - Threshold for Detail?

vulgarvulture · Post by **vulgarvulture** » Mon May 09, 2005 9:23 am

I'm a big fan of the 1:18 XD planes. The size and detail are great. But with the delays in new releases (repaints don't count), I have to wonder what balance 21st should strike between making high quality planes and time to market. What's the threshold of tooling (and paint) detail afterwhich addition detail becomes too much and becomes a 'nice to have' vs. 'must have'?

The Avenger comes to mind. I appreciate the effort 21st is putting into this release. It will look great. But I'm beginning to think that maybe I could have been happy with whatever level of detail they had tooled many months ago. Dunno.

Sure, there are complicated manufacturing and other considerations to getting the planes on the shelf. I understand that.

I'll probably get blasted for this post due to my lack of knowledge of how the toy business/toy manufacturing really work, but I really do wonder what the balance is.

I think I'd rather have more planes of good qualilty/detail rather than fewer of extremely high detail.

tmanthegreat · Post by **tmanthegreat** » Mon May 09, 2005 1:07 pm

Don't shoot yourself down. Alot of us don't know that much about the details behind toy production and marketing, but you seem to have the gist of it.

There is most certainly a balance between detail and production. Simply look at Hasbro and their highly mass-produced GI Joe and Star Wars lines which are in bulk at every retailer across the nation, then look at 21c.

21c is stuck between a rock and a hard place. Being a small company producing specialized products, they are supported by largely by a loyal fan base. Or in other words, the people who purchase their products do so because they appreciate the authenticity and detail, not so much because they just want a toy plane. The company could go the route of Hasbro and other major companies and mass produce vehicles with quality that would be at best comparable to the S1 P-51 and Sherman, but then the collectors would all have a fit. As 21c seems to be a company that wants a dedicated following, that must mean that we must wait for the good stuff. (Coincidentally, this strategy works decently for realistic military lines which can be sold at any time, but not for themed toy lines such as Sahara or Sky Captain.)

Personally, I am very glad that 21c takes the time to deliver a high-quality product for a decent price and I am willing to wait for something like the Avenger if it means that it will blow any other of the "toys" in my collection out of the water!

MightyMustang · Post by **MightyMustang** » Tue May 10, 2005 9:50 am

I'm sure the Avenger will be an awsome plane once it gets released. It should be anyway for how long its taking. In my opinion I think it will blow away all the other planes 21st has come out with so far. What I'm really looking forward to is their re-tooled P-51D. From the photos I've seen it looks MUCH better then their first releases but will it stack up to the BBI Mustang thats the question. I guess we will have to wait and see. Hopefully it wont be too much longer cause if it is I'm going to be a nervous wreck! lol

Website · Post by **Teamski** » Wed May 11, 2005 7:45 am

I'm more than happy to wait to get a more detailed model. At 1:18 scale, you can really see when there has been a skimping of detail. Just look at the difference between the S1 and bbi Mustangs. A lot of differences! I'm really looking forward to the 21st P-51. It has a better shape than the bbi version. When you see it in person, it really shows.

I hope 21st keeps the rivet detailing on the Avenger. I know Roy didn't like it being so detailed, but I think it really added to the model. Any which way, the Avenger is going to be THE plane to beat.

-Ski

MightyMustang · Post by **MightyMustang** » Wed May 11, 2005 9:45 am

Hey teamski what shape problems are you talking about with the BBI Mustang? I know the canopy is wrong but what other problems are there? If theres problems shape wise with the BBI Mustang I sure cant see them and 21st has alot of work to do to catch up with BBI's BIG Mustang and I hope they do because after waiting for its intended release (when ever that might be) anything less would be a major disapointment with this die hard Mustang fan.

Speaking of the Avenger why is 21st sticking so much time super detailing it when they hardly did that with their Corsair or P-47 releases? Dont one plane deserve as much attention to detail as the others? Personally I think 21st is going way over board with detail even though its nice. They cant call these planes toys anymore but you might call them models because only in models do you see as much detail as we are getting these days. On top of all that super detailing only causes delays which I'm sorry to say I'm getting sick of. I'm a patient guy but come on how much longer is 21st going to say "Released in the summer" only to turn around and say its been pushed back? Theres no gaurentee of the Avenger being released this summer and they havent givin a release date on the Mustang or thier new ME-109. The way its goin we aint goin to see them until Christmas or later.

This all being said I just wanted to throw my two cents in here.

tko211 · Post by **tko211** » Wed May 11, 2005 10:00 am

Teamski isn't kidding! The Avenger prototype and the new P-51 just have to be seen in person to fully understand the level of detail and accuracy. From what I understand of the toy business, which is still quite limited. the delays with the avenger are not due to working and re-working the level of details. It is more an indication of just how long it takes to go through the process for such a complicated piece. Which when you see the Avenger you will understand exactly what I am talking about it just has so many moving parts.

As far as level of detail is concerned... I doubt 21st would make plans to back away from the present course. It is the halmark and mission statement of 21st Century Toy Products. The newer molds especailly show the commitment to push harder and do more.

It has been difficult waiting it out, especially on some of these new desirable models but, trust me it will all be worth the wait in the end. Great dicussion though!

Website · Post by **Teamski** » Fri May 13, 2005 3:56 am

MightyMustang wrote:Hey teamski what shape problems are you talking about with the BBI Mustang? I know the canopy is wrong but what other problems are there? If theres problems shape wise with the BBI Mustang I sure cant see them and 21st has alot of work to do to catch up with BBI's BIG Mustang and I hope they do because after waiting for its intended release (when ever that might be) anything less would be a major disapointment with this die hard Mustang fan.

I noticed right away that the general shape of the bbi P-51 has some inaccuracies. In addition to the canopy, you have the following:

1: The prop spinner is too blunt. The real thing comes to somewhat of a point.

2. The aft lower fuselage doesn't break right where the scoop starts.

There are a couple more but I don't have the plane now of course....

-Ski

WGP Klaus · Post by **WGP Klaus** » Fri May 13, 2005 5:46 am

Teamski wrote:
MightyMustang wrote:Hey teamski what shape problems are you talking about with the BBI Mustang? I know the canopy is wrong but what other problems are there? If theres problems shape wise with the BBI Mustang I sure cant see them and 21st has alot of work to do to catch up with BBI's BIG Mustang and I hope they do because after waiting for its intended release (when ever that might be) anything less would be a major disapointment with this die hard Mustang fan.

I noticed right away that the general shape of the bbi P-51 has some inaccuracies. In addition to the canopy, you have the following:

1: The prop spinner is too blunt. The real thing comes to somewhat of a point.

2. The aft lower fuselage doesn't break right where the scoop starts.

There are a couple more but I don't have the plane now of course....

-Ski

what about the rivets? correct amount/size/shape?

Gunner · Post by **Gunner** » Fri May 13, 2005 6:39 am

The BBI P-51 is GROSSLY inaccurate.

A REAL P-51 has 6,342 rivets.

The BBI plane has 6,343!

I mean, come ON people, get your research right.

MightyMustang · Post by **MightyMustang** » Fri May 13, 2005 7:56 am

Hey Gunner BBI's P-51 GROSSLLY inaccurate? Tell me you were trying to be funny with that line. If you werent then I dont know what to say.

That being said teamski is right. The spinner is to blunt (not really noticeable to my eye anyway), the canopy is wrong, and the "rivits" are well lets say noticeable which they were not on the real thing. But otherwise its a beautiful Mustang which all who have one (such as myself) should be very proud of, I know I am. I have an idea how to correct the minor errors. If you have THE GROSSLY (and thats putting it lightly) 21st P-51 AND dont want it anymore do the following:

1-Take the prop off that and replace the BBI prop with it. A tough job but it can be done with a little work.

2-Take the 21st P-51 Canopy and put it on the BBI P-51. Now I dont know if this will work because of certain differences between the two but give it a try.

3-Rivets too noticeable? Well the simple solution to that problem is re-paint the plane but before you do that use modeling putty to fill in the rivet detail. Which has a drawback because why would anyone want to wreck a great paint job? Me I've thought about it numerous times because I wanted it to have the colors of the 352nd Fighter Group BUT since I cant find anyone to make 1/18th scale decals for me it would be a waste of time. I would do it myself but I dont have a laser printer to make such decals. I know there was a company that did make decals and they were on the Ground Pounder site but they dont reply to my emails.

The BBI Mustang shows what can be done and how good a 1/18th WW 2 Fighter can be and I think that 21st's Avenger is going to be just as good if not better from the pics I saw. Only time will tell. But BBI showed us what a really good Mustang looks like and its funny that 21st re-tools thier Mustang ofter BBI came out with theirs. It took another company to make 21st see how wrong their Mustang was because who knows? Would 21st have re-tooled their Mustang if BBI had not come out with theirs? For me thats open for debate. Now I'm not downing 21st because in the beginning they had the guts to come out with a 1/18th Mustang and they didnt go for the accuracy because it was meant as a toy but now they see that its for collectors as well so they re-tooled it. But like I said I think it was BBI that woke them upand made them see the light.

Just my thoughts.

Gunner · Post by **Gunner** » Fri May 13, 2005 9:17 am

Yes, I was being sarcastic...

Unfortunately, there's not an HTML code for humor/sarcasm, like, <S5> for tiny scarasm, and <S1> for total sarcasm...

WGP Klaus · Post by **WGP Klaus** » Sun May 15, 2005 7:04 am

Gunner was being sarcastic, as was I with my rivet comment. In the plastic modeling community we refer to those who prefer 100% accuracy with a certain subject, "Rivet Counters". Nothing wrong with those folks, hell...I'm just happy as hell we've got a piece like the P51, that just has the general shape correct, and lacking the silver fingerprint paint scheme found on the first issue 21st Corsair, that many of you may remember...lol
Wishing I would have kept the first one I purchased as there were at least 8-9 smudge fingerprints on the piece, but I opted to return it and exchange for one not so bad.