21st Century Kubelwagel - WTF?

Lance Quazar · Post by **Lance Quazar** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:52 pm

So I just got a 21st Century Kubelwagen today.

What is with this vehicle?? It's MINISCULE!

I can barely cram in a couple of Indiana Jones figures in the front seat (forget about the back), but there's no way any of the larger Ultimate Soldier figures are fitting in there.

Except of course the German that came with it. That immediately broke in two the second I tried to move its legs.

Sigh....

Stug45 · Post by **Stug45** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:55 pm

Did you try the fov germans?

holensock · Post by **holensock** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:11 pm

I feel your pain!
This has been my biggest gripe and disappointment with 21C vehicles. The fact that 21C own figures CAN'T FIT in their vehicles without taking their legs off.
Hope you didn't pay...an arm & a leg...for this...
Don't feel too bad...the MINICHAMPS Kubel is about the same when it comes to trying to get a figure into it...

Post by **aferguson** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:25 pm

fact is the kubel is the right scale. The only way to make figures that would fit in it is to make it oversized.....vehicles like Power Team makes.

1/18 figures are made of hard plastic not soft cloth and tissue like real people; so they don't fit well into scale vehicles. Such is life..

Lance Quazar · Post by **Lance Quazar** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:25 pm

holensock wrote:I feel your pain!
This has been my biggest gripe and disappointment with 21C vehicles. The fact that 21C own figures CAN'T FIT in their vehicles without taking their legs off.
Hope you didn't pay...an arm & a leg...for this...
Don't feel too bad...the MINICHAMPS Kubel is about the same when it comes to trying to get a figure into it...

Well, that's good to know about the Minichamps. The one I got was not cheap, but it certainly wasn't expensive as those suckers.

I dunno, I may just turn right around and sell it - at a huge loss, since I stupidly destroyed the box and broke the figure (though no fault of my own!)

Have to mull it over a bit. But I'm definitely disappointed.

holensock · Post by **holensock** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:39 pm

aferguson wrote:fact is the kubel is the right scale. The only way to make figures that would fit in it is to make it oversized.....vehicles like Power Team makes.

1/18 figures are made of hard plastic not soft cloth and tissue like real people; so they don't fit well into scale vehicles. Such is life..

It sure is nice though, with the Power Team vehicles, that you can actually SIT the PTE figures in it without taking their legs off. You can sit a PTE behind the steering wheel without having to break the steering wheel off. And it's great to actually SIT a group of PTE's in the troop carriers. So if their vehicles are a bit oversized-that's okay with me!
Too bad PTE doesn't make WWII...

holensock · Post by **holensock** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:44 pm

Lance Quazar wrote:
holensock wrote:I feel your pain!
This has been my biggest gripe and disappointment with 21C vehicles. The fact that 21C own figures CAN'T FIT in their vehicles without taking their legs off.
Hope you didn't pay...an arm & a leg...for this...
Don't feel too bad...the MINICHAMPS Kubel is about the same when it comes to trying to get a figure into it...
Well, that's good to know about the Minichamps. The one I got was not cheap, but it certainly wasn't expensive as those suckers.

I dunno, I may just turn right around and sell it - at a huge loss, since I stupidly destroyed the box and broke the figure (though no fault of my own!)

Have to mull it over a bit. But I'm definitely disappointed.

Been there and have done this too. While it's FUN to collect this stuff, it's also FUN to be able to pose these guys IN their vehicles! What's the use of their vehicles if their figures can't FIT inside? Might as well collect 1/32 if all you can do is have the vehicle sit on the shelf.

Jesse James · Post by **Jesse James** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:05 pm

aferguson wrote:fact is the kubel is the right scale. The only way to make figures that would fit in it is to make it oversized.....vehicles like Power Team makes.

1/18 figures are made of hard plastic not soft cloth and tissue like real people; so they don't fit well into scale vehicles. Such is life..

Exactly what Aferg said...

The vehicle is spot-on but it just is a tiny vehicle in real life really.

I removed some of the floor, actually, so my figure's legs would go through into, ultimately, the hood area. It's not an ideal solution, but my full size XD figures fit in perfectly now, you can't tell I did anything to it unless no figures are in it and you're inspecting it closely, and man they look great chilling in it taking a ride.

I even managed a guy in the back relaxing with the MG... Wish I had a couple more now, but this and the jeep did not last long on shelves anywhere near me.

Personally, I'm a scale guy... It has to be right to look right next to other items of the same scale. I'd be disappointed if it were much larger. A hair? maybe... On something this small in real life though, it's tough. I'm pretty happy with it. The Jeep is pretty cramped too... Just the way they were made.

holensock · Post by **holensock** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:31 pm

Good idea on removing the floor!

tmanthegreat · Post by **tmanthegreat** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:32 pm

You can fit figures in without damaging the Kubelwagen. Two of the regular-sized first series Germans will fit in the front seats, with one sitting across the back seat. The BoB Germans (with overcoat removed) also fit in a similar manner. The new D-Day figures also fit well, but you have to remove the lower (boot) portion of the legs. If you don't plan on taking your figures in and out of the vehicle, this method works and you can't see the shortened legs. Using that method, I was able to get four figures in the vehicle.

Jesse James · Post by **Jesse James** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:37 pm

It's more the firewall than the floor, but it worked perfectly, and with a D-Day officer and grunt driving him around, it looks cool.

I have him talking with the Falschimjager officer over a FOV map. Pretty slick looking.

Lance Quazar · Post by **Lance Quazar** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:00 am

aferguson wrote:fact is the kubel is the right scale. The only way to make figures that would fit in it is to make it oversized.....vehicles like Power Team makes.

1/18 figures are made of hard plastic not soft cloth and tissue like real people; so they don't fit well into scale vehicles. Such is life..

Slightly distorting the size of the vehicle to accommodate actual figures seems like the better route to go. It wouldn't have taken much and it still could have looked good.

aae83 · Post by **aae83** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:21 am

It's interesting how each of us has a different perspective on this issue.

I prefer vehicle dimensional accuracy, and would rather have a few 60th-percentile soldiers to fit. Soldiers came in different sizes; kubelwagen did not. Maybe the WWII equivalent of a Radar O'Reilly.

In any case, don't dump the kubel: the molds for those were destroyed in a fire and 21st won't be making any more soon. It still has value.

Maybe some resourceful board member can figure out a way to make bendable rubber/metal legs that might fit better, kinda like Gumby and Pokey. Maybe with cloth trou...

coreystinson · Post by **coreystinson** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:15 am

aferguson wrote:fact is the kubel is the right scale. The only way to make figures that would fit in it is to make it oversized.....vehicles like Power Team makes.

1/18 figures are made of hard plastic not soft cloth and tissue like real people; so they don't fit well into scale vehicles. Such is life..

And we must remember that 21st's original scheme to deal with this situation was to make figures (to include with the vehicles) that were smaller than 1:18 scale and smaller than the other carded, 1:18 scale figures. This did not go over well.

MG-42 · Post by **MG-42** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:52 am

[+] > I still think that the original figure designed to fit the Kübel is an essential.

* Also , I still think that 21st.Century will re-introduce it in the future. Only this time it will have a simulated "soft-top". *

<center>
<img src="http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd20 ... 425Q85.jpg" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"><br><br>
[+] 21st.Century Kübelwagen proto-type w/ simulated "soft-top" </center>

Mitch v MG

momaw nadon · Post by **momaw nadon** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:50 am

coreystinson wrote:
aferguson wrote:fact is the kubel is the right scale. The only way to make figures that would fit in it is to make it oversized.....vehicles like Power Team makes.

1/18 figures are made of hard plastic not soft cloth and tissue like real people; so they don't fit well into scale vehicles. Such is life..
And we must remember that 21st's original scheme to deal with this situation was to make figures (to include with the vehicles) that were smaller than 1:18 scale and smaller than the other carded, 1:18 scale figures. This did not go over well.

I brought this up once before in another thread, but the figures that came with the vehicles were really out of scale in terms of their height. There weapons and equipment were and might have been a little small build wise, but if they were 1:1 scale they would stand about 4'5" (if memory serves me correctly without doing the math again). The figures they give us now are I would say are out of scale. Most of them run in the 6' and taller if they were 1:1 scale. I don't know about you, but I don't know many 6' tall WWII vets or many people today for that matter. My Grandfather and Great Uncle were WWII vets, and they aren't 6'. My wife's Grandfather is a WWII vet and he is only 4'10". Any research on the height of people back then has the average male 5'6" or something like that. Even today the average is only a few inches more at male 5'9".

Tell you the truth, I would like to see more of a size difference in the figures we get. Makes everything more life like.

Anyway, getting back on topic the Kubel was a tight fit even 1:1. Their back seat was not very leg room friendly to the tall person. Odd thing is my VW Bug which is set up like the Kubel (same floor pan) has more leg room in the back than my VW Rabbit even with a larger wheel base.
momaw nadon

MG-42 · Post by **MG-42** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:34 am

[+] > Well at least they made a figure correct for the Kübelwagen more to scale , size wise.

* Save the U.S. vehicles. *

Mitch v MG

Jesse James · Post by **Jesse James** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:24 pm

Lance Quazar wrote:Slightly distorting the size of the vehicle to accommodate actual figures seems like the better route to go. It wouldn't have taken much and it still could have looked good.

That depends on your market... Kids or adults? Kids play with toys so ease of figures getting in/out is important there. If it's adults and display though, the way it was, ultimately was the best choice they had at the time...

I think the true "best choice" on the matter is basically make the item like I mentioned, with removing the things under the dash that are obstructing a larger figure getting in. Figures get in/out easier and the toy remains accurate in scale lined up with the Panther or Tiger, and the figures as well.

The other option is a "removable" dashboard, or other innovations that companies like Hasbro are looking at, to fit figures into vehicles that are tighter fits. Case-in-point is the Gen. Grievous Fighter for Star Wars, and the tight cockpit... It's got a removable dashboard system to allow larger figures to fit. I'm curious to see if the new big Gen. Grievous figure coming out this year will fit in there actually.

But yeah, had they (21st) at the time been considering larger figures as pilots/drivers, they could've/should've considered the "wall" area with the gas/break pedals being removed or moved back some, to accomodate the larger figure. At the time though, as was noted, you got the dinky figure that looks like an aged child next to other figures.

I didn't care for the dinky figures myself, but I also don't care for vehicles being noticeably out of size with figures and compared to other vehicles. The Kubelwaggen was a TINY car. Very small, very "cheap" and efficient/durable. So I dig having it to-scale next to the behemoth Panther it was released with. They display well together (along with the Tiger, Hano's, etc.).

Make the Kubel bigger though, and it's gonna be noticeable if you know much about it and the other pieces on the shelf. It's like making hatch-holes larger on tanks to accomodate the figures too... I'd rather not be able to squeeze a figure half in the hatch, than have the hatch made larger to accomodate the figure.

[CAT]CplSlade · Post by **[CAT]CplSlade** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:06 pm

IRT Jesse James:

Actually, the firewall is behind the back seat. Even though the fuel tank is in front, there was little in the way of fireproofing up there.

IRT momaw:

The pans are very close, but the Kubel employed some changes that made the pans not exactly interchangeable. It's a little different with the "modern" Type 2 and Type 181 (Thing). The Thing is not quite a duplication of the original Kubel - most obvious is the lack of suicide doors on the Thing.

Jesse James · Post by **Jesse James** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:32 pm

Yeah, I couldn't think of a better "term" for it than firewall... The engine's viewable in the back however. Just didn't have whatever term works for it so it's a firewall without really needing to be a firewall, hah.

momaw nadon · Post by **momaw nadon** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:15 pm

[CAT]CplSlade wrote: IRT momaw:

The pans are very close, but the Kubel employed some changes that made the pans not exactly interchangeable. It's a little different with the "modern" Type 2 and Type 181 (Thing). The Thing is not quite a duplication of the original Kubel - most obvious is the lack of suicide doors on the Thing.

You are right, but if you remove everything from the chassis that make any one of these cars you will be very surprised that they are almost identical. Many reproduction Kubel (like kit cars) are placed on the VW Bug pans do to them being more abundant.
momaw nadon

[CAT]CplSlade · Post by **[CAT]CplSlade** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:37 am

Well, VW made many parts interchangeable between models due simply to the fact that all the other vehicles were derived from the basic design.

If you compare an early VW engine with an early Porsche engine, you'll see they are virtually identical except for larger pistons, a heavier crankshaft, better cooling, and carburation for the Porsche.

Probably can't tell too well from this photo, but a Porsche engine has been bolted into this Bus. A very simple conversion mostly involving cutting sheetmetal in the engine bay.

momaw nadon · Post by **momaw nadon** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:06 pm

[CAT]CplSlade wrote:Well, VW made many parts interchangeable between models due simply to the fact that all the other vehicles were derived from the basic design.

If you compare an early VW engine with an early Porsche engine, you'll see they are virtually identical except for larger pistons, a heavier crankshaft, better cooling, and carburation for the Porsche.

Probably can't tell too well from this photo, but a Porsche engine has been bolted into this Bus. A very simple conversion mostly involving cutting sheetmetal in the engine bay.

Done that to a few VWs myself. I had a Type III Squareback powered by 2600cc Porshe. Also helped a friend transplant the whole rear of a Porshe 914 into his Karman Ghia. Talk about a boost in power.

Many water cooled V-Dubs are the same way, being interchangeable with Audi. You can take Audi multi-valve heads and put them on VW blocks to get a 20 value VW. Many parts only have slight changes from year to year, car to car even. I have some Scriocco mark II seats in my Rabbit mark I and only had to change the seat lever to the other side. Make part searching easy too

.

momaw nadon