Scored Higher than Wittmann

Mr. Football · Post by **Mr. Football** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:35 am

I'd love to see Cyber-Hobby tackle some other Tiger Aces other than Wittmann. Surprisingly enough, there were several who outscored "The Great One", including Otto Carius (already covered...bravo), Hans Bolter, Walter Schroif, and the Top Tiger Ace of WW2, Kurt Knispel.

Here's a listing of the Tiger Aces, and their respective records:
http://www.alanhamby.com/aces.html

Post by **aferguson** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:16 pm

hmm......so why all the fuss about Whittman then?

hworth18 · Post by **hworth18** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:36 pm

aferguson wrote:hmm......so why all the fuss about Whittman then?

IMHO,
Wittmann was just a very popular person.. He was a showman that posed for the cameras whenever he could.. The big misconception was just that..
His popularity has grown into a mysticism over the years into "He was the Greatest" which just isn't true..

Now, if he had survived the war, he might have been the Top scoring ace, but like George Prettie, he died before his time..

easy8 · Post by **easy8** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:37 pm

Good ideas Football, speaking of Carius, have you seen his CH tank on ebay latley, it's fetching a pretty hefty price tag...I think there are only a few hours left on the auction.

easy8

lightning2000 · Post by **lightning2000** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:42 pm

Hi,
I think it can be summed up like this: Wittmann is the equivalent of the Red Baron from WWI. He was highly publicized by the German press and Ministry of Propaganda, he served in Hitler's namesake formation, he served with distinction on multiple fronts, received all sorts of decorations, was written about and documented ad infinitum, yada, yada. The other commanders you mentioned, though well-deserved, are no names at best that the average collector knows nothing about and could care hooey about. Unless they can be romanticized and discussed for their exploits, few collectors would be interested in them unless they're collecting for speculative reasons.

Again, I'd like to see them steer away from the Tigers and do other vehicles. I'm sure they're only scratching the surface of this collecting craze and have many more introductions in the pipeline.

Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.bigstep.com

Sgt. Stryker · Post by **Sgt. Stryker** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:26 pm

Do we know if Wittman's 007 Tiger was a late production or a mid production model?
Corgi 1:50 and Dragon 1:72 have it as late production.
K&C 1:30 has it as mid production.
Also, was the 007 Tiger knocked out Aug 1944 by a Typhoon fighter/bomber or a British/Canadian Firefly Sherman?
Thanks.
STRYKER

hworth18 · Post by **hworth18** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:28 pm

Sgt. Stryker wrote:Do we know if Wittman's 007 Tiger was a late production or a mid production model?
Corgi 1:50 and Dragon 1:72 have it as late production.
K&C 1:30 has it as mid production.
Also, was the 007 Tiger knocked out Aug 1944 by a Typhoon fighter/bomber or a British/Canadian Firefly Sherman?
Thanks.
STRYKER

Stryker,
Wittmanns 007 Tiger was a Late version.. I think it has been determined that Wittmann was clobbered by a Firefly that snuck up and hit him from behind..

Mr. Football · Post by **Mr. Football** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:28 pm

By the looks of things...I would say a Typhoon.

Whatever it was, it blew the turret clean off the Tiger's hull. Methinks it was a Tiffie as we would've heard the name of the Allied tanker who sent Wittmann to his death.

hworth18 · Post by **hworth18** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:30 pm

Mr. Football wrote:By the looks of things...I would say a Typhoon.

Whatever it was, blew the turret clean off the Tiger's hull.

Internal ammunition explosions were often enough to blow turrets off the tanks..

hworth18 · Post by **hworth18** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:36 pm

Here is a paragraph fron Achtung!Panzer:

Finally, it was proven that Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed by fire from tanks of "A" Squadron of Northamptonshire Yeomanry. British Firefly crew observed advancing Tigers and opened fire at when Tigers were some 800m away. According to original War Diary of "A" Squadron, at 12:20, 3 Tigers were moving towards the Squadron and were destroyed at 12:40, 12:47 and 12:52 without any losses. After the first Tiger was destroyed at 12:40, second one returned fire but was hit and blew up in a loud explosion. Following that, third Tiger was knocked out after receiving two hits. Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed as second at 12:47 by British Sherman VC "Firefly" commanded by Sergeant Gordon (gunner - Trooper Joe Ekins) from 3rd Platoon, "A" Squadron, 33rd Armored Brigade of 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry. British Sherman VC "Firefly" armed with 17 pounder gun was capable of penetrating Tiger's armor at range of 800m. The force of explosion blew off the turret, which landed upside down away from the hull. Wittmann did not know that British had Firefly in the area and felt confident in attacking their position with his Tigers, otherwise he would take different approach to the whole attack. After Wittmann failed to return from the battle, search for him by the members of the 12th SS Panzer Division "Hitlerjugend" and his battalion took place during the day and on the night of 8/9th.

Here is the link to Wittmanns story..

http://pedg.org/panzer/public/website/gen3.htm

Sgt. Stryker · Post by **Sgt. Stryker** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:38 pm

Wow.
I can't believe that Andy at K&C has the wrong production scheme for his 007 Tiger.
Also, do you think that Cyber Hobby should have held off selling the 222 and 007 Tigers until the Tanks could be sold as "Zimmerits".
Finally, isn't the Corgi 1:50 222 Tiger really the Villers Bocage Tiger that Wittman "borrowed" from Kurt Sowa, then left abandoned in the village center.

Mr. Football · Post by **Mr. Football** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:51 pm

Also, do you think that Cyber Hobby should have held off selling the 222 and 007 Tigers until the Tanks could be sold as "Zimmerits".

They are "Zimmermits"

Sgt. Stryker · Post by **Sgt. Stryker** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:07 pm

Oops. I wasn't paying attention.
The photo shows Wittman sitting on a late model Tiger with Zimmeritt and monoscope:
http://www.cyber-hobby.com/catalog/drag ... page1b.jpg
Was the 007 Tiger a "borrowed" tank as well as the 222 Tiger?

lightning2000 · Post by **lightning2000** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:11 pm

Hi,
I'll bet dollars to donuts that the next Wittmann variant will be a two pack featuring the Zitadelle and Tiger Ace & Glory vehicles. If they go with decorative bases, expect it to be a big seller, judging by how quickly the individual items were snapped up by collectors.

Me? I'm holding out for the elongated subway sandwich Wittmann variant that'll feature every single tank he was ever in including his training vehicle. I figure it'll be around five feet long.

Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.bigstep.com

Sgt. Stryker · Post by **Sgt. Stryker** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:28 am

Ok, Ok. I have Wittman Mania. But it's the Forum's fault, not mine. I didn't even know who Michael Wittman was until I became a board member, and started reading all the topics & threads. I thought we were going to talk about how the Allies kicked the Krauts butt, but instead we are all talking about goose-stepping Nazi's trying to knock out our Shermans & Churchills with Tiger & Panther tanks.
That said, I did some research, and
The German account is that the 007 Tiger, which was "borrowed" by Wittman from the ssPz101 commander, was blown up by a rocket from behind, presumbaly from a Typhoon.This happened during daylight hours (i.e. late afternoon) of August 8, 1944.
The British account has the 007 Tiger being ambushed by Fireflys during the late night of August 8.
It is a well known fact that Wittman & crew did not return from battle during the evening of August 8, and German patrols were sent to look for them, and the 007 Tiger.
Given the timelines, I believe the German account, since Wittman would have regrouped his Company in the evening of August 8 before trying to stage a midnight attack against the British.

nfafan · Post by **nfafan** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:41 pm

aferguson wrote:hmm......so why all the fuss about Whittman then?

1. These toys come from Asian manufacturers, primarily for the Asian consumer first, followed by the Western consumer.

2. The Asians are freakin' nutso over anything German, ESPECIALLY Whittman.

Post by **aferguson** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 2:52 am

yes but i meant why Whitmann as opposed to the other, even higher scoriing German tank aces.

I gather now that it is because Whitmann, being an ardent Nazi as well as a tank ace, was glorified more by Nazi propaganda and hence became better known.

mailalan · Post by **mailalan** » Mon May 02, 2005 2:35 am

You are right about Wittmann being played up by the German press. By contrast, the number one scorer, Kurt Knispel, was known to be a bit of a non-conformist. Even though he had more kills than anyone he never received the Knight's Cross because he was not the image of the ideal German soldier. He had long hair, his uniform was often unkempt and he was somewhat wild and insubordinate. He made his superiors angry, unlike Wittmann who could be considered a "teachers pet" so to speak.

- Alan

Tiger I Information Center

Mr. Football · Post by **Mr. Football** » Mon May 02, 2005 11:57 am

Maybe we could get Worthan's Dragon Originals to commission us a Special Limited Edition 'Knispel' Tiger???

hworth18 · Post by **hworth18** » Mon May 02, 2005 12:53 pm

Mr. Football wrote:Maybe we could get Worthan's Dragon Originals to commission us a Special Limited Edition 'Knispel' Tiger???

Get me the right tactical numbers and I can produce any Tiger you wish..

gazzavc · Post by **gazzavc** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:20 pm

What they should produce is a twin pack, Wittman's Tiger 007 and The Firefly "Veliki Luki" from The Northampton Yeomanry what killed him.

Call it the Victor and the Vanquished.

luftpanzer · Post by **luftpanzer** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:36 am

Whitman 007. Bond 007. Hmmmmmmm s there a conection here? Was Ian Flemming a fan of Whitman. Hmmmmm

demonclaw · Post by **demonclaw** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:20 am

The thing that made Wittmann famous was Villers Bocage , no other tank commander have ever destroyed so many tanks in one battle . So in terms of skill and bravery he deserves to be known as the best tank commander in history

Airman001 · Post by **Airman001** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:24 am

( See http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-vet ... 0021/posts)

There are other tanks aces, but we hear little about the aces of other nations. Below is the story of an American tank ace who accomplished his victories in 1944-45.
"This story is about a tank commander who destroyed 258 enemy vehicles, but he never was awarded the Knights Cross. He was never presented to Hitler, he never wore a fancy black uniform with death heads and S.S. runes, and he never commanded a Panther or Tiger. The reason? He was an American GI and he set the above record in a Sherman tank! Contrary to popular belief other countries besides Germany were capable of producing tank aces too.
Staff Sergeant Lafayette G. Pool was typical of some of the fine tankers produced by the U.S. Army during World War II.

At Fromentel, Pool's tank headed the task force Y column as usual which closed the gap. During the closing, Pool's second tank was destroyed by enemy bombers, which only made Pool more mad at the Germans. Again the crew survived intact. At Colombrier, France, Pool's tank leading the column almost collided with a Panther. The Panther fired twice and missed. Ollier, the gunner, fired a single shot which penetrated the turret and internal explosions blew the turret clean off the hull of the Panther.
At Namur, Belgium, "In The Mood's" crew destroyed sixteen enemy vehicles, including assault guns, self propelled anti-tank guns, plus several armored personnel carriers in one day. At Dison, Belgium, Pool distinguished himself while acting as a platoon leader. He decided to use his own tank to clean out an annoying pocket of resistance on the left flank of the route they were traveling. After finding and destroying six armored personnel carriers Pool discovered that the head of his column had been fired upon by a German Panther. Quickly he ordered his driver to regain the column. Upon arriving upon the scene of the action he spotted the enemy tank, gave a single estimated range to Oller. The gunner fired an A.P. projectile at 1500 yards to destroy the Panther. The column then moved on with Pool again in his customary place in the lead. Although Pool had two tanks knocked out from under him, he had nerves of steel. His crew added confidence from his bearing and as a result they moved as a single unit, like clockwork."
Wittman is well known due to the Japanese love of things German (World war 2). Also, Sgt Poole performance is more remarkable because he did it in the Sherman tank.
Also, if the US have upgunned the gun on the Sherman to a larger caliber, with its reliability, it was have been the German would have feared the Sherman as they did the Sherman firefly.

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Scored Higher than Wittmann

Scored Higher than Wittmann

Wittmann

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