Tiger I appraisal, s.v.p.

King O' Fools · Post by **King O' Fools** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:22 am

Here's a little question for you guys... As some of you may be aware of, I wanted to buy a Tiger I in German grey (S-1 version), so I went ahead and took another leap of faith.

I bought one loose from a reputable source thinking the tank would look exactly as you'd expect if it had come out of the box and had been displayed by a discerning adult collector (the seller amply fits that description).

Instead, what I got was a Tiger I that was missing both antennas and the MG, had a very visible glue streak (or whatever it is) between the headlamp and the driver's viewport and that looks as if someone had applied a coat of paint all over the original finish, except for the hull markings (these are on a darker and shinier background).

The seller has offered to make a refund, but I don't know how much it can possibly be worth (especially, considering the added cost of having this item shipped to Spain). I don’t think that tank is worth more than $20.00, since I’ll now have to repaint it and buy new markings (I don’t know if 1/16 decals will do the trick, though).

What do you people think would be a fair price for a loose Tiger I with missing antennas/MG and that botched paintjob with a glue streak not even your glaucoma-impaired grandmother would miss?

Your thoughts, please.

GooglyDoogly · Post by **GooglyDoogly** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:06 pm

From what you described, you're right, it's not worth more than 10-20 dollars. Especially since you can get a NIB eastern front Tiger for $50-$100 nowadays.

To give the seller a benefit of a doubt, the some of the early 21st grey Tigers have messy paintjobs. But that didn't really bother me, since I just saw it as "weathered".

PS: 1/16th decals will work. You just have to pick and choose which decals you use though.

King O' Fools · Post by **King O' Fools** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:21 pm

Thanks for your reply, GD.

I wasn’t bothered so much by the markings as I was by the glossy streak. Too bad I already have the winter scheme version, as that would have been my first option: giving it a nice witewash to “winterize” the tank.

Panzer_M · Post by **Panzer_M** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:36 pm

you just need some minor dis-assembly and a can of Tamiya Dark yellow or German Grey and then get to work on rebuilding a Tiger.

I've seen the glue mark on several Tigers. QC issues well that is what 21st is known for above alot else.

King O' Fools · Post by **King O' Fools** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:28 am

Yeah, well, the thing is I bought the darn thing from a well-known and respected member of this board, who was offering several pieces of armor on e-Bay a while back, figuring that nothing could possibly go wrong this time.

I specifically bought several MIB items (with which I'm very pleased). But then I also bought the Tiger I (S-1 version), which he offered loose. I thought, “what the heck, this guy has a blameless track record customizing models, so this Tiger I might as well be MIB” (someone who makes money on e-Bay customizing stuff is not going to sell you a substandard item from his personal collection... I mean, that would be pretty dishonest, right?). So I offered him a substantial amount of money.

Well, it turns out I was completely wrong.

I paid $60.00 (yeah, that’s S-I-X-T-Y DOLLARS) for that single loose Tiger, and all I got was a faulty paintjob, no MG and no antennas. Great!

When notified about these issues, the excuse the seller came up with was:

"Glue streaks are common on 21st vehicles." No kidding.

So he initially acknowledged the possibility of the model having that conspicuous defect.

But then he said: "I do not see the problem in your pics or mine.” (This in spite of the fact that I've emailed him several pictures showing the glue mark.) “Nor did I notice any problem when I had it. I did not do any gluing on it, or make any modifications. I think you know these did not come from the factory in perfect condition."

C’mon, I spotted the glue mark as soon as I took the tank out of the box. How come someone with his modelling skills didn’t notice it upon close inspection (before listing it on e-Bay)?

And how lame is that excuse: "I think you know these did not come from the factory in perfect condition?" Well, for sixty bucks I do expect my Tiger I to be in perfect condition.

The thing is the seller didn't warn me that the paint job was pure unadulterated crap and he has now offered to make a refund of just $20.00. Who in the world would pay $40.00 for a botched loose Tiger?

Looks like I've been had yet again.

EnemyAce · Post by **EnemyAce** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:42 am

Loose is loose. Your problem is you didn't request quality close up pics of the loose tank. Then you'd have something to complain about.

King O' Fools · Post by **King O' Fools** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:49 am

I see, so you actually think it’s reasonable to sell a defective tank (with a glue streak that’s plainly visible when you hold it in your hand) for sixty bucks? And to do that to another board member who's buying items from you for an additional $274?

Oh, and BTW, the item description didn't state the tank was missing the MG and the antennas either...

ostketten · Post by **ostketten** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:56 am

Glue streaks are common on 21st vehicles." No kidding

Well, to a certain extent that's true...not on every model mind you, but I've encountered glue streaks on practically every class and scale of model from 21st that I have in my collection including AC, armor, guns, and so on. Generally speaking, these streaks and spots are not terribly large by any stretch, but they do exist. Sounds like your glue streak is rather large though, and it would be nice if we could see a pic to illustrate just how bad it is.

King O' Fools · Post by **King O' Fools** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:07 am

Guess I'll have to host those images somewhere first...

King O' Fools · Post by **King O' Fools** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:32 am

These were taken using a webcam, so the quality leaves something to be desired:

By KingOFools

toyktdlgh · Post by **toyktdlgh** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:51 am

Is it the mark above the peep? Is that the only paint defect or are there others?

immeww2 · Post by **immeww2** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:11 pm

It's sad that another board member would pull such a trick and offering only $20 to correct the problem. He should refund you your money and take the tank back and customize it since the tank obviously needs another paint job.

King O' Fools · Post by **King O' Fools** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:40 pm

toyktdlgh wrote:Is it the mark above the peep? Is that the only paint defect or are there others?

Yup. There's also a little glue along the edges of the headlamp arm/support too (though it's barely visible in the pictures) and the background beneath the hull markings (the division insignia and both balkenkreuzen) is clearly a different (darker) shade of grey (as if someone had painted around them).

EnemyAce · Post by **EnemyAce** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:43 pm

I was only saying that saying something is "loose" is far different than saying something is "mint out of box" or "loose complete."

I learned a long time ago it is better to ask your questions up front - to one person a missing MG or antennae is a huge deal, to another, it doesn't matter or they didn't even notice.

My still in box S1 Tiger has globby paint in parts from that heavy wash-type over paint they did, and the glue streak or whatever is pretty par for the course for 21st products.

King O' Fools · Post by **King O' Fools** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:49 pm

immeww2 wrote:It's sad that another board member would pull such a trick and offering only $20 to correct the problem. He should refund you your money and take the tank back and customize it since the tank obviously needs another paint job.

He's offered me a full refund upon receipt of the tank. The thing is shipping the tank back to the US alone will be another fifty to sixty dollars (add to that the original shiping cost and it's clearly a no win situation for me).

BTW, I'm quite pleased with the MIB items I bought from him, which makes it even harder to understand why he acted the way he did regarding the Tiger.

King O' Fools · Post by **King O' Fools** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:03 pm

EnemyAce wrote:I was only saying that saying something is "loose" is far different than saying something is "mint out of box" or "loose complete."

I learned a long time ago it is better to ask your questions up front - to one person a missing MG or antennae is a huge deal, to another, it doesn't matter or they didn't even notice.

My still in box S1 Tiger has globby paint in parts from that heavy wash-type over paint they did, and the glue streak or whatever is pretty par for the course for 21st products.

Well, I specifically asked whether ALL the original accessories were included:

Is there any chance you might be willing to sell your listed models at a pre-agreed price? Sort of a "Buy it now" option? If so, I'd be interested in three of them (provided all original accessories/figures are included)

And, just to be clear, I'd expect the ubiquitous run-of-the-mill 21st screwup in a never-before-opened MIB item, but not in one that's been displayed by someone who routinely sells customized stuff.

I mean, if you're the go-to guy for 1:18 scale custom armor, the least you can do is spot a glue streak on a panzer that's roughly the width of a ballpen.

toyktdlgh · Post by **toyktdlgh** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:24 pm

He offered you a full refund if you return it. Then offered you $20 and you keep the tank right? I think I’m confused as to what you’re after. I would take the $20 and call it a day especially given your location and the cost to ship it back. At least your others turned out well. I must say I have always been a bit paranoid buying on here since the last few scams. I’m just happy to get a box in the mail. Good luck with it.

gary1930 · Post by **gary1930** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:41 pm

toyktdlgh wrote:He offered you a full refund if you return it. Then offered you $20 and you keep the tank right? I think I’m confused as to what you’re after.

I'm confused too.
I am the seller referred to in this thread, and I want to set the record straight on this deal. The Tiger in question was on of several 1:18 items I had on Ebay, and announced here that they were up. This is the picture that was on Ebay, and in fact is the only one I have of it.

Note that it does not have antennae, a figure, or an MG. King O’ Fools asked me to take this one plus others off Ebay and sell them to him directly. He made fair offers, including $60 for this Tiger. I accepted, and took the items off Ebay. I also offered him a new-in-the-box winter or tri-color Tiger for the same price instead, but he insisted on this gray one. I included the driver figure from another tank.

I can honestly say that the tank sat on my shelf for over a year, and I did not notice the glue streak or paint problems he refers to. They don’t show up in my pic or his, as far as I can see.

Nevertheless, I offered to refund his $60 on receipt of the tank, or $20 plus an antenna (I only have one) and an MG, mailed at my expense. If these offers are somehow unfair, I’d like to know what else I should do. I have made several deals with other forum members with no problems, and I have a perfect feedback score on Ebay (see seller gkutcher). I want to keep my good reputation intact.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:09 pm

For KOF

GooglyDoogly · Post by **GooglyDoogly** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:43 pm

KOF, If I were you, I'd take Gary's offer of $20 plus the missing parts.

A quick work with a cutter and file, spray a dab of panzer grey, and that tank will look much better than when it was MIB.

SolidSnakeEyes · Post by **SolidSnakeEyes** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:50 pm

I think the paint job on that is standard factory, right? I seem to remember my Tiger I having a darker/glossy looking area around the unit markings...it's like a material used to attach them...maybe?
The glue marks are also pretty standard. Mine has it too.

ostketten · Post by **ostketten** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:26 pm

KOF, If I were you, I'd take Gary's offer of $20 plus the missing parts.

I agree... it seems very reasonable to me. To be honest, I don't see the glue spot in question as a really big deal, but to each his own I guess. The Tiger in Gary's pic looks to me to be very well representative of an average example, maybe not perfect, but not the worst I've seen by a long shot.

Jesse James · Post by **Jesse James** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:27 pm

I gotta agree with the majority here KOF.. You should either take the $20 and parts or the refund. Really both were quite fair I think, in general. Personally, if I really wanted a Tiger, I'd do the partial refund w/parts but that's me.

Then again I'd have loved to have gotten one of the other paintjobs off him, haha... I never had the tri-color one, nor the winter one. Wish I had both to be honest.

gary1930 · Post by **gary1930** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:48 pm

SolidSnakeEyes wrote:I think the paint job on that is standard factory, right?

Right.

olifant · Post by **olifant** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:31 pm

Gary, the Tiger in your photo looks better then mine that came MIB. You are a better man than I because I don't think I would have offered any relief on the sale. Buyer beware.
KOF, I think you are a little hypercritical of these toys. That Tiger is seven years old, made by Chinese labor and has been shipped 3/4 of the way around the world.