Bad Cat has Panther up for pre-order....

[hotrodrock]

Lets go back to Stuka's post about selling at $49.99 and still making some profit. Out of all of our members no one seems to know what any of the dealers are paying for this item. Do we want to know?

I used to be big in collecting the 1/18 diecast cars. For years and years thru most of the 90's, Ertl held their prices to around $20. You could go to TRU and there would be half of an entire isle from floor to top shelf full of them. Ertls gone and the average price now from dealers is $90 to $120 for one, albeit a much more detailed and improved model. But heres the rub. A new car comes out and 90% of the dealers want $120 for it. But there is always some dealers whose business is mostly on ebay who sell that same car for $80 and they are not going broke but are staying in business selling for $40 less. There was one popular forum that I belonged to where I would always ask other members, what is the dealer paying for these. I would nearly always get the same answer, "we really don't want to know because it would just piss us off more when compared to what we are paying".

Of course then it would drift off into what the dealers had to pay for electricity, building rent, blah, blah, blah. I don't believe that one single post has mentioned the possibility that its the dealers and not 21st who are trying to make a killing from the $100 price. I'm not saying thats the case because I don't know the wholesale cost of the tank. But isn't it a possibility? It seems some have already dropped that price by $30. Do we think that any dealer is doing that and still not making some profit?

[King O' Fools]

Well said toyktdlgh......Of course the price hike has not affected me yet because I locked in on the $89.00 price 21st quoted...

*cough*

Actually, it's $89.99.

But still, that's an unheard of price! It's so unheard of, 21st can't even remember saying that.

But, but, but... I have those flashy grahics to prove it!! Seems 21st is big on graphics, artwork and promises. Other than that, it's just hot air.

The thing is even if the specialty market folks fall for this "oil-is-to-blame-for-the-price-hike" ploy, they still won't make a profit on new releases, Panther repaints with only one figure notwithstanding. Quite simply because they won't sell enough $100 tanks to make up for the plunge in their sales. Especially, since their toys will still be, well, just toyish. They want to cater to the adult collector now, but apparently that doesn't involve further improving and detailing their products.

Re: The Flying Mule. Yeah, that happened overnight. They didn't even wait for their stocks to sell. They just dropped 21st products altogether.

[ostketten]

Well, then just run out and buy you an AT or BBI 1/18 Panther for $49

[lightning2000]

Hi,
I'm not looking to get in the middle of the squabbling. From a vendor's standpoint, however, we dont benefit either if the retail price point has to get hiked well above what you customerily paid in the past for 1:18 scale products, new tooling or not. Moreover, etailers just cant compare with Wal-Mart in terms of pricing power. If you've ever watched the expose on Walmart produced by CNBC and typically run on holidays, it basically points out that a prospective manufacturer has to come in at a certain price point in order for Walmart to sell the product. Its then up to the manufacturer to cut costs to meet that price point or walk away from the deal altogether. In some instances, manufacturers have lost money just to get their product into Walmart, with the hopes they can make up the profit somewhere else.

Lastly, manufacturers dont benefit either if their core constituency turns their nose up to new items that may be priced higher than usual. If inventory doesnt move, then they can dump it to recoup their investment, and, quite possibly, forestall future product development if they meet undue price resistance.

Lets face it, this isnt heart medication, gasoline, food, rent, what have you. Its a luxury, pure and simple. If you feel you cant afford these items, then there are other alternatives, or you can hope the price may be marked down to a more acceptable level sometime down the road.

Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.net

[MG-42]

[+] > Well said "Lightning".


Mitch v MG

[CW4USARMY]

Hi,
I'm not looking to get in the middle of the squabbling. From a vendor's standpoint, however, we dont benefit either if the retail price point has to get hiked well above what you customerily paid in the past for 1:18 scale products, new tooling or not. Moreover, etailers just cant compare with Wal-Mart in terms of pricing power. If you've ever watched the expose on Walmart produced by CNBC and typically run on holidays, it basically points out that a prospective manufacturer has to come in at a certain price point in order for Walmart to sell the product. Its then up to the manufacturer to cut costs to meet that price point or walk away from the deal altogether. In some instances, manufacturers have lost money just to get their product into Walmart, with the hopes they can make up the profit somewhere else.

Lastly, manufacturers dont benefit either if their core constituency turns their nose up to new items that may be priced higher than usual. If inventory doesnt move, then they can dump it to recoup their investment, and, quite possibly, forestall future product development if they meet undue price resistance.

Lets face it, this isnt heart medication, gasoline, food, rent, what have you. Its a luxury, pure and simple. If you feel you cant afford these items, then there are other alternatives, or you can hope the price may be marked down to a more acceptable level sometime down the road.

Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.net

I dont know about everyone else, but this isnt about whether or not I "can afford these items". For me, and it appears maybe others as well, this is about basic principles, not whether or not I can afford it. I can easily afford multiples and I'm sure other folks can to. Using the "afford" comment either means you are not understanding the point about unjustifiable 100% markup on an old mold, or is just meant to play off human pride to try and get folks to buy it to prove they can afford one.
For the most, this outrageous price increase appears to be 21st century's doing and I havent seen anyone here blame the etailers. Just because we haven't drank the 21st-can-do-no-wrong kool-aid and pre-ordered at this new and improved price doesnt justify a remark like this, especially from an etailer.

Now, I'm off to spend a whole lot of money on Indiana Jones stuff!

[olifant]

Good points. It's difficult for me to understand why some people can't seem to grasp the implications of simple economics, this really has nothing at all to do with 21st Century "price gouging" or trying to fleece collectors. The truckers just finished protesting here in DC about $4.50 a gallon diesel fuel, and guess what...?? most everything we consume is shipped across the country by train or truck, and they burn...you guessed it..diesel!! Everything from toilet paper to cereal is going to get more expensive to buy, so why is it so hard to understand that the same principles apply to a plastic model tank

The crux of the matter is not so much an increase in oil prices as poor business decisions on the part of 21st (like including only one tanker figure with the "new" Panther):

Take them [WM] out of the equation and maybe you can sell a couple thousand to the rest of the retail network willing to carry an item of this size and nature, and you readily see that the costs creep up big time.

In other words, 21st wants their customer base to make up for their loss of business/lack of a sound business strategy, and it looks like it's going to backfire on them big time, if comments on this board are anything to go by.

KOF, I have not heard one positive comment from you during your time on this forum. Not just with the new prices on 21C offerings, but on every post you have. Do you have anything good to say about anything pertaining to our hobby? Please, I would like to hear it!

Also, is it truly a "poor business decision" on 21C's part to include only one tanker? I think you are awfully judgemental on things which we can only speculate about. Do we know why WM isn't carrying XD armor and planes any longer? Do we know why FM isn't carrying 21C?

For crying out loud guys, haven't you seen the prices lately? Gas, eggs, bread, rice, cheese, meat, damn near everything has gone through the roof. Because 21C has increased prices from 2000 levels should not be a surprise. Has anyone gone this long without a pay increase at work?
Rant off.

[Stug45]

Well said.

[ostketten]

As much as I wish I could, the cost on some of those is really expensive. I was talking more about the Henlong tanks and things, which probably are more toyish by comparison (yet 10x superior to XD tanks somehow in most respects it seems). I wish I had the money for a high-end hobby like those 1:16 vehicles and items. Amazing detail on that stuff.

The Hen Long 1/16 tanks really are not at all that "toyish" with regard to detail, but most of them need to be repainted, which is not that big of a deal because it allows you to tailor the scheme to your liking, plus the decals that come with them are crap anyways, and there are some terrific high quality and accurate 1/16 scale decals available from a German outfit called Peddinghaus. BTW, the RC tanks are going to see some fairly steep price increases over those from a year ago as well, so if you have ever wanted to go RC, now is the time to go for it before prices take a big jump. I just purchased an HL M26 Pershing and I'm in the process of repainting and detailing it, I will post pics eventually in the customs forum, it's an awesome beast.

[MG-42]

[+] > There goes my Government Stimulus check !


Mitch v MG

[aferguson]

well if the price increase on the panther is a sign of things to come generally as regards to prices then we are witnessing the end of western civilization.

100% price spikes equates to 100% inflation, which will devestate any economy. Yet inflation overall is chugging along right now at about 3 1/2% annualized. So where are all these enormous price increases coming from?

Fuel costs make up only a small percentage of the overall cost of producing/transporting most products, so even the meteoric rise in oil prices doesnt' justify a meteoric rise in retail prices.

With the KT and 88, the chief reason for the big price increase is supposed to be the lower production run. Which is a fine argument...the problem is if the market won't bear the high price tag there will be no follow up production runs of the KT, 88 or anything else 1/18 for that matter.

And regardless, the panther is not a new tooling, so there is little justification for a big price spike on it.

No one is arguing that prices don't go up over time and that oil won't cause price increases. But something isn't right (ie fishy) when you see sudden and very dramatic percentage increases in price.

[King O' Fools]

KOF, I have not heard one positive comment from you during your time on this forum. Not just with the new prices on 21C offerings, but on every post you have. Do you have anything good to say about anything pertaining to our hobby? Please, I would like to hear it!

Also, is it truly a "poor business decision" on 21C's part to include only one tanker? I think you are awfully judgemental on things which we can only speculate about. Do we know why WM isn't carrying XD armor and planes any longer? Do we know why FM isn't carrying 21C?

For crying out loud guys, haven't you seen the prices lately? Gas, eggs, bread, rice, cheese, meat, damn near everything has gone through the roof. Because 21C has increased prices from 2000 levels should not be a surprise. Has anyone gone this long without a pay increase at work?
Rant off.

I thought this thread was about the 21st Panther selling for big bucks at Bad Cat, but I may be mistaken.

I complain a lot. So what?

You don't like it. So what?

Well, maybe I complain because of those pervasive XD quality issues, like 21st getting the markings on their halftracks wrong, or those black straps the Vietnam figures sport, or the fact that one of the members on this board has bought FOUR BBDs and the paintjobs on all of them were botched... Or perhaps it's the fact that I couldn't buy them on clearance at WM for $15 (now THAT's supporting 21st, right?) ...and couldn't care less if they're crap, because I can "afford" to buy multiples at that price. Guess what? I can't.

I have spent a lot of money on this hobby (probably more than some people here, and certainly more than the average 21st customer, considering the shipping costs), so I think I just earned the "right" to complain aobut faulty merchandise when I have to get it shipped halfway across the globe (even if it's no one's fault that I live where I do, I still have to pay for shipping). Get a clearer pciture now?

I seem to get substandard paintjobs, which can be attributed in part to the fact that I cannot choose the "specimen" with the least production flaws. And that's because I have to rely on etailers, and some of them apparently couldn't care less about the merchandise they put in the box. After all, it's highly unlilkely that I, of all people, will return defective merchandise to them (so it actually makes sense as a way of getting rid of their substandard items). But it's mostly because 21st, by and large, doesn't give a rat's ass about the quality of their products. "Plane" and simple.

You can shoot the messenger if it suits your fancy, but that isn't going to kill the argument or make it any less valid. And, unfortunately for you, this isn't about me bashing 21st over a non-issue, no matter how you look at it.

Something positive? The Minichamps diecast Kubelwagen rocks. Now that's a collectible I'd gladdly buy at a $100 apiece. Wait! That' exactly what I paid for it.

And this is gonna help their case how, exactly? Will 21st sell more tanks at that price if I stop "bashing" them? Will you give me credit for "achieving" their bankruptcy if they ever go belly up?

Also, do you really think including just one tanker figure with their Panther repaint will make them sell more tanks at that price?

[smittyrob64]

BTW, the RC tanks are going to see some fairly steep price increases over those from a year ago as well

When? Whats your source? If anything I've seen prices lowered.

Mato where I bought my RC stuff used to sell their tanks and parts for a more last year. So far I've only seen the PzIIIH up $10, but thats hardly steep.

[olifant]

KOF: Do you know what the definition of insanity is?

Doing things the same old way while expecting different results.

May I suggest you swear off BBI, 21C and AT and concentrate on higher end suppliers? Both of us may be happier!

[MG-42]

KOF, I have not heard one positive comment from you during your time on this forum. Not just with the new prices on 21C offerings, but on every post you have. Do you have anything good to say about anything pertaining to our hobby? Please, I would like to hear it!

Also, is it truly a "poor business decision" on 21C's part to include only one tanker? I think you are awfully judgemental on things which we can only speculate about. Do we know why WM isn't carrying XD armor and planes any longer? Do we know why FM isn't carrying 21C?

For crying out loud guys, haven't you seen the prices lately? Gas, eggs, bread, rice, cheese, meat, damn near everything has gone through the roof. Because 21C has increased prices from 2000 levels should not be a surprise. Has anyone gone this long without a pay increase at work?
Rant off.

I thought this thread was about the 21st Panther selling for big bucks at Bad Cat, but I may be mistaken.

I complain a lot. So what?

You don't like it. So what?

Well, maybe I complain because of those pervasive XD quality issues, like 21st getting the markings on their halftracks wrong, or those black straps the Vietnam figures sport, or the fact that one of the members on this board has bought FOUR BBDs and the paintjobs on all of them were botched... Or perhaps it's the fact that I couldn't buy them on clearance at WM for $15 (now THAT's supporting 21st, right?) ...and couldn't care less if they're crap, because I can "afford" to buy multiples at that price. Guess what? I can't.

I have spent a lot of money on this hobby (probably more than some people here, and certainly more than the average 21st customer, considering the shipping costs), so I think I just earned the "right" to complain aobut faulty merchandise when I have to get it shipped halfway across the globe (even if it's no one's fault that I live where I do, I still have to pay for shipping). Get a clearer pciture now?

I seem to get substandard paintjobs, which can be attributed in part to the fact that I cannot choose the "specimen" with the least production flaws. And that's because I have to rely on etailers, and some of them apparently couldn't care less about the merchandise they put in the box. After all, it's highly unlilkely that I, of all people, will return defective merchandise to them (so it actually makes sense as a way of getting rid of their substandard items). But it's mostly because 21st, by and large, doesn't give a rat's ass about the quality of their products. "Plane" and simple.

You can shoot the messenger if it suits your fancy, but that isn't going to kill the argument or make it any less valid. And, unfortunately for you, this isn't about me bashing 21st over a non-issue, no matter how you look at it.

Something positive? The Minichamps diecast Kubelwagen rocks. Now that's a collectible I'd gladdly buy at a $100 apiece. Wait! That' exactly what I paid for it.

And this is gonna help their case how, exactly? Will 21st sell more tanks at that price if I stop "bashing" them? Will you give me credit for "achieving" their bankruptcy if they ever go belly up?

Also, do you really think including just one tanker figure with their Panther repaint will make them sell more tanks at that price?

>>> Well said "KOFs" !


Mitch v MG

[STUKA]

I bought a few planes at WM for $5.00 too - I guess I should have passed on them, gone home and picked a few off badcat for $70.00 - sigh - I do everything backwards.

Hi I'm STUKA ......eh I clip coupons....



"HI STUKA"

[King O' Fools]

I bought a few planes at WM for $5.00 too - I guess I should have passed on them, gone home and picked a few off badcat for $70.00 - sigh - I do everything backwards.

Hi I'm STUKA ......eh I clip coupons....



"HI STUKA"

Don't get me worng, I'm glad it worked for you (and yes, you'd have to be dumb to pass on those planes at that price), but not all of us here are on the same boat.

I for one wouldn't complain if I could hit the mall down the road and buy their XD for $5.00 apiece too, but I can't. I pay dearly for them and so I expect a somewhat more stringent QC process, because I need to get it right the first time (as buying multiples is out of the question).

The thing is, when it comes down to hurting 21st in the pocket, all my ramblings are innocuous compared to people who consistently buy XD items on clearance. For all my negativity, I've never held back from buying aircraft or armor, sometimes at exhorbitant prices.

So which is worse: complaining that 21st didn't do their homework or waiting for their products to go on clearance?

[momaw nadon]

Clearance isn't always a bad thing though. Yes, it means that the item peg warmed, but it also helps to bring in the new stuff.

If you look at a big company like Hasbro, take there Star Wars line. They make 12 figures per case (lets say). If only 6 of those figures sell at full price and the others peg warm, then did Hasbro fail on that case? I think they plan on more for at the least a 50% fail rate and most stores don't keep stuff around to long, as it really isn't the manufacturer that is out cash, but the reatil that bought the stuff to resell. In most cases the retailers mark up covers that bases, so if they do mark something down to move it they aren't out anything or very little.

Bad Cat is smart for putting up Per-orders, as it helps them determine if an item is worth the touble of selling in the first place. Say they only get 4 orders for this Panther, then they are most likely not going to get any more than 1 or 2 cases (if they are still sold in cases). So if they do have to clear them out they won't be out very much.

I do agree with most of all that has been said here though. The price for an old mold is too much. And I don't think the "price of oil is up, so we have to up our prices" cuts it with an old mold . If anything they should be offering it at a lower price, as the mold should have already been paid for. That leaves the cost of producing the item. If they charged $40 right of the bat, then I don't really think it cost them no $50-$100 just to produce it now . Really the price should not go up for old molds to be reused and plus this is not the only time it was reused too. That is just me thought on it.

momaw nadon

[ostketten]

When? Whats your source? If anything I've seen prices lowered.

Get back to me in a year...OK??

Ost out.

[smittyrob64]

Oh I will, and remember you said steeply.

[ostketten]

and remember you said steeply

I really don't want to split hairs with you here smitty ol' boy, but I said, and I quote "some fairly steep increases" Ok...hope we are clear on that now. I also said now is the time to get into RC before prices go up, and I believe they will go up, it's just a matter of time.

[King O' Fools]

KOF: Do you know what the definition of insanity is?

Doing things the same old way while expecting different results.

May I suggest you swear off BBI, 21C and AT and concentrate on higher end suppliers? Both of us may be happier!

Thanks for your suggestion. Too bad I'm not here to make you happy. Anyway, I see you keep on shooting the messenger. It's a real shame you have to turn this into something personal.

Now, when you're finished calling me names (and, yes, I'd think saying or at least implying I'm insane qualifies as such), maybe you can attack the rest of the 21st "bashers" on this thread on the grounds that they're off their meds too. Otherwise you're going nowhere with that "rationale."

Apparently, you don't think I've earned the right to criticize 21st. My bank statements beg to differ.

[smittyrob64]

I really don't want to split hairs with you here smitty ol' boy, but I said, and I quote "some fairly steep increases" Ok...hope we are clear on that now. I also said now is the time to get into RC before prices go up, and I believe they will go up, it's just a matter of time.

Hey, I'm not trying to fight with you and I don't beleive I'm splitting hairs.
You may be right and you may be wrong. From your post it just sounded like you knew something, read some website that stated they would be upping prices or had some evidence to support your claim, thats all.

[mikeg]

Is this what a damned voyeur feels like? I think I need a shower-

But don't let little old me interupt nuthin....

[aferguson]

OK, EVERYBODY CHILL......I DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO START HANDING OUT KP DUTY AS PUNISHMENT.