Spec. Ed. P-51 BBD is out

[STUKA]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTUruCv4Qi4

sips XD

[olifant]

I agree that I wish 21C would do more new models, release more old models and move into bigger AC. C'mon though, lets keep it in perspective. I get tired of the endless 21C bashing. It doesn't mean we can't discuss our wishes and concerns, but has anyone here ever been so upset they are going to stop purchasing their releases? Some of the comments I have read make me wonder "What does 21C think when they read these." If I were part of the company, I would want to give this whole forum the big finger after reading some of what is written.

To speak to the concerns around BBD, I would say the following:

QA issues. I too wish paint would be applied more carefully. But when we are buying these things for $40 can we really expect these are all done perfectly? Do we really want to pay more money? If we do, will WM continue to carry these? Be careful what we wish for.

Churning out old makes/models/repaints. Lets face it, how many of us got into the hobby because we saw one of these great Mustangs? I have always been greatly interested in history, war and the tools of the trade but my first XD was bought on clearance and even then I wondered why a grown man was spending money on a toy. The BBD re-release will convince many to purchase who may join us in serious collecting. Besides, if this bird can be a cash cow for 21C and allow them to fund new projects like the F-4, I say keep pumping these out like mad.

New packaging. What is wrong with this? I can guarantee you that the people who do the CAD design, mold machining and produce these birds are not the ones making the box design. If this helps these things sell, what is wrong with it. Is there anyone who is so attached to the old green boxes they are upset with the change?

[CW4USARMY]

I think you have it backwards. We have reason to give 21st some gruff, not the other way around. One of the biggest problems is that they DONT come to this forum, or at least darn sure dont provide any reliable (emphasis on RELIABLE) info (B-25 or F-4 anyone?) .
I cannot seriously believe that in this day and age, our lesson of the day is that we must somehow bow down to a company so that they might possibly give us what we want in the future? Highly recommend economics 101 for those that believe this. Ironic that those same folks who bash "corporate greed" with regards to Walmart (see Off-Topic), somehow believe it doesnt apply to 21st. 21st is still the big player in 1:18 (or is it 1:32nd now) so I'll have to buy from them on new molds, but doesnt mean I have to drink their kool-aid too. Forgive me if I think Admiral's principles, integrity and commitment to the consumer have placed them as the "gold standard" in my eyes. I dont think they would insult us with giving us the same mold, same color, but in "new and improved" boxes. (I could be wrong)

I dont think the intent is to "bash" 21st, just calling it like it is. I believe quality of the aircraft is more important than the box, but thats just me, and I believe this forum allows me to express that opinion, correct?, (or is this the 21st lovefest fan club forum?) If it is a new mold in one of these pretty boxes, then great. But I sure as hell dont want to start seeing all of the old molds cranked back out because of a new box design.

Once you've shown that you'll buy the same old mold over and over again as long as the packaging is new, thats exactly what you'll get (Star Wars figs anyone?) I care about the bird, not the box. How many here will really go out and buy multiples of the same mold, and same paint job as long as the boxes are different?. Now if they do, then we're screwed, because why the hec would 21st make new aircraft when the customers keep buying the same stuff in different boxes. A lot cheaper to invest in creating a new box than a new mold.

Quite a few of the folks here that I communicate with have expressed the same concern as I, and that is whenever we mention something about 21st (especially customer service and care, or lack thereof), then we are instantly labelled as 21st bashers or haters. I can guarantee I have filled their coffers more than most, and I think that gives me the right, and the experience, to make my voice heard when 21st doesn't reciprocate the commitment.

Lastly, as someone has said before, they are just toys, so I dont get upset about the toys and boxes. I've spent the better part of my live preparing and fighting for the freedom this country enjoys, and ultimately I've learned to love a good fight, so I'm more apt to respond to the kool-aid drinkers quicker and brasher than most. But rest assured it's all in good fun (mine ) and meant to create discussion and measure consensus rather than bash anyone.

Now, back to assembling my F-4

[vmf214]

Got my spec. ed. BBD yesterday. The paint is way better than the last one, although out of 25+ stores in my AO only came across 3 in which to choose from, all with pretty raunchy paint. This is definitely one to leave in the box as it just looks too cool any other way. Goes good with the Rall spec. ed.

I think we'll see more of these special edition boxes and I welcome them. I believe pretty much like the original press release from 21st states they chose BBD because it's an awesome scheme. I mean to box one up for something like the Flying Undertaker would be abit boring imo. Yes I am one that will buy everything 21st, BBi, Admiral, Pegasus, etc. makes with a prop or a rotor blade, regardless of repaint, rebox, or whatever because that's what I collect, aviation memoribilia to include toys. I have everything they've made to date aviation wise plus a few prototypes I was lucky enough to aquire. I am loyal to all the large scale companies, 21st, BBi, Admiral, etc. I've been collecting toy military items for 35yrs and take it pretty seriously. I also feel as a 23yr retired veteran I have more than earned the right to speak my mind as well, right , wrong, or indifferent. I also will not incite an argument, take a topic to left field, or try to "bust" someone's bubble that is excited about any new release, just won't do it, pretty childish to do so in my opinion. Yeah there just toys but it's no different if this were a gun, car, or whatever forum. Yeah Admiral is a great company, however, my hobby room isn't exactly overrun with their 1/18 products I mean you can count on 1 hand how many they've put out. 4 repaints of the Sabre...(some folks here crucify 21st for repaints) an Me-262...and where are the Dauntless, Hartmann Sabre, and repaint 262 we were promised? White 7 was "on the water" 3 months ago someone said??? Pretty slow damn ship. It's pretty much the sos with any of these companies, not just any given one. ALL of their intel on a given release is pretty questionable. 21st is obviously relaxing on the 1/18 as 1/32 is pretty hot right now. Look at all the new releases just in the past few months. New molds, 190F, 38(t), Marder just this month...delivered as promised. As much as I would love to see new things, Wildcat, Typhoon, Hurricane, more Japanese items and so on they can't just make whatever in the hopes it'll go over, hell they'd be outta business within 6 months and I doubt any of us want that. Reading some of the stuff on here over the years it seems like some feel offended they aren't on a personal mailing list from the manufacturer on new releases, when, where, and what. The B-25 I am quite sure is giving them fits and I am also quite sure we'll be rather pleased with it when it does come. Look at the problems that had to be overcome with the Avenger...and you gotta admit that's one nice aircraft! No this isn't the 21st lovefest forum there W5, but it ain't the Admiral lovefest forum either, or BBi, or Pegasus, or whoever. I seriously doubt 21st is gonna throw up their hands and start pumping out old releases in new fangled boxes, please, lets get real.

[CW4USARMY]

. I seriously doubt 21st is gonna throw up their hands and start pumping out old releases in new fangled boxes, please, lets get real.

They already have and you just bought it.

[Coreyeagle48]

Greetings:

There are some very vaild points being made about 21st Century Toys and their releases. I can see and easily understand why people feel they are being slighted when 21st releases the same plane in a fancy box and wants people to buy it.

This is an example of 21st once again missing the marketing they could have. Why was this not thought of sooner? Think how cool it would have been to have each of the airplanes have a special unique box from the start with each aircraft. As someone pointed out, it's not hard to change a box design. Even though it might cost a little more, that would have been very professional looking and got the attention of collectors and history buffs. I believe GMP diecast does this for their racecars and they always look so cool as a result. Doing it now and with an airplane that has already been out is just an insult to the people that have already bought the airplane. It probably feels like to them that they went out and spent their $40 and now they don't have a special box. Like I said, I can see where people will feel insulted and be upset by this, and they have every right to be in my opinion. Although I like the box, it is a pretty low tactic to sell more BBD planes and get people to buy a second example just for a cardboard box.

For me, there have always been two issues that really bother me about 21st, the quality control and the packaging of their products, especially when it comes to the airplanes. I have never seen some quality control issues like those on 21st airplanes make it into a store. Look at all the other toys in the store, look for broken parts and sloppy paint jobs, you just don't see it. Some of the airplanes I have seen make me wonder why they were even put in boxes. Some of them have touchups and the colors don't even match. Honestly, my fifth graders and even my first graders last year can do better. Someone suggested we should expect this given we are paying $40 for these airplanes, I disagree with that. It doesn't matter if you pay $20, $2000 or $5, a product should be right when you buy it, no matter what. And trust me, even the smallest customers know what is right and what isn't. I often see kids themselves look at things and see problems. Bottom line, if some of the products look as bad as they do, collectors won't buy them and neither will the average person. They will say "That looks like junk" and move on. It should be a company's commitment to make it right from the start. With 21st, it seems to be one debacle after another. I'm afraid to buy their products online, simply because you never know if you get the best model in the world or a bunch of parts in a box.

Then there is the packaging. Their boxes have to be some of the weakest and most poorly constructed in the toy market. Haven't they realized the plastic trays do not hold up to being shipped and haven't they noticed their plastic ties scratch the aircraft. It really bothers me to open up one of their airplanes and see scratch marks due to a plastic tie, or see the plastic tray beat up and the parts missing or broken because of it. I also can't tell you how many times I have seen the box windows broken or missing. Although this may be due to Walmart's customer base or their rough handling of products, it is still 21st's issue. They should know that the boxes don't hold up and need an adjustment. I know many people who will not buy a product if the box is badly damaged, who can blame them. By having poor packaging, 21st loses their customers. It seems most other toys are much better packaged in stronger boxes. I respect 21st selling these airplanes in the stores, but they have to have them stand up to the stress of normal shipping and moving within a store shipping system. I know there is an industry acceptable loss for product damage in shipping but 21st's has to be through the roof.

21st is a leader in the military toy market. When the products are the best they can be, they are some of the finest toy aircraft you can get and the most affordable. They are a nice mixture of playability and accuracy. They make nice collection pieces and they offer repaints for different versions. I am not taking that away from them. Part of being in business though is improving your products and learning from experience, which in my opinion they haven't done. Instead of making new aircraft which would be more of a hit and add to their cash flow they repaint an aircraft and stick it in a new box. They have also not learned to address their rampant and embarassing quality control issues nor have they learned that their packaging is not up to an acceptable standard for the toy market. They need to improve upon these things to have a good customer base that will continue to support them. It is common business sense.

There are plenty of us collectors that love 21st products, I do myself. Constructive criticism is a good thing and it is the only way things improve in the long run. As many people suggested, a good start would be 21st listening more to their customers and learning from their own marketplace experiences. If they had indeed learned from them, they would realize that they need to improve the quality control and packaging their aircraft come in. They would also realize that customers want new products to buy and enjoy and although the repaint or special edition is nice, it will not keep your most passionate and loyal customers happy over the long term nor will it keep your stronghold in what is quickly becoming a competitive marketplace.

Corey

[CW4USARMY]

Excellently stated Corey!

[vmf214]

. I seriously doubt 21st is gonna throw up their hands and start pumping out old releases in new fangled boxes, please, lets get real.

They already have and you just bought it.

You bet, from now on guys 21st is only going to put out old stuff in new fangled boxes! Say goodbye to the B-25, Phantom, any hopes of an A-10. Why, cause our esteemed and knowledgeable colleague above says so. Draw and quarter me for buying this evil, sinful, item!

How absolutely moronic!

As usual Corey you make good points. I don't really think comparing these planes to every other toy in the store is accurate though. Most other toys aren't based on an actual thing, with high levels of detail. Also these are painted not stickered, tampo graphics instead of decals, & most importantly made of plastic, so yeah there is liable to be errors. As far as damage you thank the folks that load the trucks, off load the trucks, right down to the stockers who in my experience are probably responsible for most of the damage we see. I can count on 1 hand how many planes I've recv'd thru the mail mind you, that were damaged. More rigid packaging means for $$ at the checkout stand. I really don't think 21st did anything wrong with the new packaging but you know I'm sorry I started this thread. How it can be contrued as a low tactic is beyond me. They chose BBD because it's flashy, period! I mean it just too cool of a scheme for them not to have done it! Let's say they chose any of the T-bolts to do this to and from now on we see planes in these nice boxes, they eventually would do BBD imo and I'm sure there'd be plenty of chattering here about how cool it would be to have a BBD boxed like that...If this new boxed planes offend so many and 21st is just playing dirty pool doing this then quit buying there products, pretty simple. From now on I'll just keep new things I see to myself as to avoid moronic debates from guys that have nothing better to do then fence over trivial subjects.

[VMF115]

Old models in new boxes…no big problem for me. I think it’s great!!!!
It might bring in new collectors and customers that might not have noticed this market before.
New customers will insure that 21st is around for a long time.

[vmf214]

Old models in new boxes…no big problem for me. I think it’s great!!!!
It might bring in new collectors and customers that might not have noticed this market before.
New customers will insure that 21st is around for a long time.

Thank you, finally someone who see's it for what it is. I'd love to see one of each of past production planes in special edition boxes, naturally, as a collector that keeps them in the box. What's wrong with it? Nothing. Anyone ever stop to think that the new box was done for the fans? Nope would rather bitch and moan coz it's not in their area of interest.

[Coreyeagle48]

VMF,

Those are some vaild points as well. I agree with you one the fact that many of the other toys are stickered and not the level of detail that these items are. Given that statement, maybe something like these shouldn't really be sold at Walmart. I will also say if Walmart wants to carry a collectible item like this, they should be prepared to stock them and treat them with care. I would also pay a few more $$$ if the packaging was better as well. The biggest issue I have seen is the ends of the boxes get caught and opened and the clear windows break. I just think there has to be some way that can be addressed to make these toys survive a bit better on the trips thru the mail, the store and even to the home.

I honestly don't have an issue with the box that much. It is really 21st's call if they want to rebox an airplane. I liked the Pearl Harbor P-40 boxes they did and I also like this box a lot as well. I also like the idea of these boxes. However, given the fact that BBD had already been produced, I would have liked to see them do this with a new mold or a different paint scheme. It is a little bit insulting to those that may have this particular paint scheme, but want the box and do not have the room/funds to purchase another. I may just buy this because of the way this is packaged, it looks nice. But I can tell you that if I already had one, I couldn't invest in getting another simply for a box. It also would have personally made me mad, becuase like VMF, I like to collect. That is the only point I am making, I don't think it is worth the investment for a plane we already have. I sincerely hope 21st makes use of this type of package idea in the future, it is very presentable and professional looking and makes the airplane look much better in my opinion. I hope they use this good idea in their future products. I don't mind them releasing old products as long as they release new ones as well. That's all I ask.

VMF, you make another good point as well about the Walmart stock and the issues they have with things. I often wondered just how happy 21st Century is with Walmart and the deal they got there. I never see the planes abused at Toys R Us like they are at Walmart. I am willing to bet 9 out of 10 broken 21st Century planes come from Walmart. Well, we will give 8 out of 10 to give Walmart a Christmas present. It has to be a lot though, at least that is my gut feeling.

I know Walmart saved 21st Century awhile back, but I wonder if Walmart should really be carrying this stuff. It seems like they can't handle it and the toy departments do not really want it. Maybe Walmart can continue to carry the smaller items and TRU can carry the big ones, as they stock nicer and seem to have less broken items. This is just a thought for the future I suppose.

Corey

[vmf214]

What I like about you Corey is your a good voice of reason. I am convinced that they are trying something new and what a better test platform then BBD. Just because alot of folks on this forum have BBD already doesn't mean the thousands upon thousands of collectors who aren't on this forum have one. I guarantee this new box design will sell product and I'm quite sure we can expect to see future releases with at least one paint scheme in a special edition box. It bothers me that this thread go abit violent but rest assured when I'm condescended to, basically called "gullable" by another member, and also a feable attempt is made to make me look like a fool, then yep I'm gonna get lit up. 21st may not monitor this forum as much as other manufacturers or even at all, but they for sure pump out more product than the others. And not just the new BBD box let's not go there again and beat a dead horse, look at all the 32x stuff both aviation, armor, & artillery, the Chinese figs which I think are pretty interesting which is something we didn't see coming. At this point I'm quite satisfied with all the makers, have alot to look forward to particulary the new Zero from BBi. Hopefully Admiral delivers what it's promised but irregardless patience is a virtue.

[Birddog]

Hopefully Admiral delivers what it's promised but irregardless patience is a virtue.

I wouldn't loose to much sleep about Admiral delivering what it promises.... They are listening to us and directly communicating with us on what is going on. Knowing what has been done to the Dauntless should tell us that they ARE taking our input seriously. It's going to be an amazing model when it arrives.....