POST ALL AVENGER FINDS AND DISCUSSION HERE!
TBM color variations
From what I can tell, both the Pacific tri-color and later all-sea blue paint schemes appeared on Avengers in 1945. Sometimes even within the same unit. Here are a couple of profiles from Osprey's book about Avenger units:
As the profiles show, here are two TBM's from the same time frame showing the variation of color schemes.
I also believe that most (if not all) of the shipboard Corsairs were in the all-blue scheme. The earlier tri-color Corsairs were from land-based units, although I can't find any reference to the color change time. The 21C Bunker Hill Corsair, even though in all blue, is a perfect match for the tri-color 21C Bunker Hill Avenger; that is exactly how they would've appeared on board the CV-17 in February 1945.
(What is the S1 Corsair? I can't recall.)
JimBob
As the profiles show, here are two TBM's from the same time frame showing the variation of color schemes.
I also believe that most (if not all) of the shipboard Corsairs were in the all-blue scheme. The earlier tri-color Corsairs were from land-based units, although I can't find any reference to the color change time. The 21C Bunker Hill Corsair, even though in all blue, is a perfect match for the tri-color 21C Bunker Hill Avenger; that is exactly how they would've appeared on board the CV-17 in February 1945.
(What is the S1 Corsair? I can't recall.)
JimBob
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It's most probable that tri-colour and all blue avengers served together. I believe the all blue camo scheme came into being around mid '44. Any avengers still in tri-colour were not going to be repainted but new avengers replacing lost aircraft would be in all blue.
I don't know for certain that all shipboard corsairs were overall dark blue even though the green light for putting corsairs on carriers came in the fall of '44, a few months after the change over to the all blue camo; i would think that some of the land based navy units would have been moved to equip the carriers and surely some of them would still bare the tri-colour scheme. It is possible i guess that only new units equipped the carriers and thus would sport all blue corsairs.
I'm sure someone on the board will know the scoop..
I don't know for certain that all shipboard corsairs were overall dark blue even though the green light for putting corsairs on carriers came in the fall of '44, a few months after the change over to the all blue camo; i would think that some of the land based navy units would have been moved to equip the carriers and surely some of them would still bare the tri-colour scheme. It is possible i guess that only new units equipped the carriers and thus would sport all blue corsairs.
I'm sure someone on the board will know the scoop..
i never met an airplane i didn't like...
Bunker Hill flight deck
Check out this photo. It shows the Bunker Hill flight deck during the Japanese home island raids of February 1945 (signified by the yellow cowl rings). The Corsairs (and Hellcats) are in all blue. I'm not sure if you can make it out, but the Avengers still have the tri-color paint scheme.
JimBob
JimBob
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Here are the variants of the TBF/TBM Avengers:
Grumman TBFs
XTBF-1: two prototypes, R-2600-8 engine
TBF-1: initial production version similar to second prototype; total 2,291 excluding prototypes but including -1Bs and -1Cs
TBF-1B: variant for British with minor differences: initially designated Tarpon TR.Mk 1; 395 conversions
TBF-1C; as TBF-1 but with maximum fuel capacity increased from 335 to 726 gallons with two wing drop tanks and bomb bay ferry tank, two 0.5 inch wing guns
TBF-1CP: conversions of TBF-1C with trimetrogen reconnaissance cameras in fan to give wide coverage
TBF-1D: conversion with RT-5/ASP-4 radar in wing pod; TBF-1CD similar conversion of TBF-1C
TBF-1E: conversion with special radar and additional avionics
TBF-1J: conversion for Artic operations, including a high-capacity cockpit heater, bad weather avionics and lighting, and special ice protection
TBF-1L: searchlight on retractable mount extending from bomb bay. Quickly dropped as the searchlight made the plane a fine target for submarine anti-aircraft fire
TBF-1P: TBF-1 conversion, as TBF-1CP
XTBF-2: conversion of TBF-1 No. 00393 with 1,900hp XR-2600-10 engine
XTBF-3: two TBF-1s completed with engine installation of TBF-3
General Motors TBMs
TBM-1: similar to TBF-1: total 550
TBM-2 similar to TBF-1C: total 2,336
TBM-1D/E/J/P: similar to corresponding TBFs
TBM-2: conversion of TBM-1 No. 24580 with XR-2600-10 engine
XTBM-3: conversion of four TBM-1Cs with R2600-20
TBM-3: major production model with R-2600-20 engine and outer wing drop tanks or rockets: total 4,657
TBM-3D: conversion with APS-4 radar on right
TBM-3E: conversions with strengthened structure and RT-5/APS-4 radar in pod under right wing
TBM-3E2: updated TBM-3E with extra avionics
TBM-3H: conversions with surface-search radar
TBM-3J: conversions as TBF-1J
TBM-3L: conversions as TBF-1L
TBM-3P: photo-reconnaissance conversions, differing from TBF-1P
TBM-3U: conversions for utility and target towing
XTBM-4: three new-build aircraft with redesigned wing and different fold system for re-stressed to 5g maneuvers, production of 2,141 TBM-4 cancelled at VJ-Day
Post War Variants
TBM-3M: conversions for missile launching
TBM-3M2: updates with extra equipment
TBM -3N: conversions (1945/46) for special night attack missions
TBM-3Q: various rebuilds for post-war ECM and EW research and combat duty with prominent additions on belly, cockpit,fin and in some cases wings for reception and/or jamming
TBM-3R: conversions for seven passenger or cargo transport in at least threee configurations, all without guns and with door on right
TBM-3S: major post-war conversion program for ASW strike, most being further updated as TBM-3S2 with TBM-3E2 avionics
TBM-3W: major post-war conversion program for AEW(radar picket) duty with APS-20 radar, no armament and extra fins, most updated as TBM-3W2 with upgraded displays for two rear operators and other changes
British Designations
Avenger MK-1: TBF-1B total 402
Avenger MK-2: TBM-1; total 334
Avenger MK-3: TBM-3; total 222
Avenger AS.Mk4 : post war TBM-3S total 100
Grumman TBFs
XTBF-1: two prototypes, R-2600-8 engine
TBF-1: initial production version similar to second prototype; total 2,291 excluding prototypes but including -1Bs and -1Cs
TBF-1B: variant for British with minor differences: initially designated Tarpon TR.Mk 1; 395 conversions
TBF-1C; as TBF-1 but with maximum fuel capacity increased from 335 to 726 gallons with two wing drop tanks and bomb bay ferry tank, two 0.5 inch wing guns
TBF-1CP: conversions of TBF-1C with trimetrogen reconnaissance cameras in fan to give wide coverage
TBF-1D: conversion with RT-5/ASP-4 radar in wing pod; TBF-1CD similar conversion of TBF-1C
TBF-1E: conversion with special radar and additional avionics
TBF-1J: conversion for Artic operations, including a high-capacity cockpit heater, bad weather avionics and lighting, and special ice protection
TBF-1L: searchlight on retractable mount extending from bomb bay. Quickly dropped as the searchlight made the plane a fine target for submarine anti-aircraft fire
TBF-1P: TBF-1 conversion, as TBF-1CP
XTBF-2: conversion of TBF-1 No. 00393 with 1,900hp XR-2600-10 engine
XTBF-3: two TBF-1s completed with engine installation of TBF-3
General Motors TBMs
TBM-1: similar to TBF-1: total 550
TBM-2 similar to TBF-1C: total 2,336
TBM-1D/E/J/P: similar to corresponding TBFs
TBM-2: conversion of TBM-1 No. 24580 with XR-2600-10 engine
XTBM-3: conversion of four TBM-1Cs with R2600-20
TBM-3: major production model with R-2600-20 engine and outer wing drop tanks or rockets: total 4,657
TBM-3D: conversion with APS-4 radar on right
TBM-3E: conversions with strengthened structure and RT-5/APS-4 radar in pod under right wing
TBM-3E2: updated TBM-3E with extra avionics
TBM-3H: conversions with surface-search radar
TBM-3J: conversions as TBF-1J
TBM-3L: conversions as TBF-1L
TBM-3P: photo-reconnaissance conversions, differing from TBF-1P
TBM-3U: conversions for utility and target towing
XTBM-4: three new-build aircraft with redesigned wing and different fold system for re-stressed to 5g maneuvers, production of 2,141 TBM-4 cancelled at VJ-Day
Post War Variants
TBM-3M: conversions for missile launching
TBM-3M2: updates with extra equipment
TBM -3N: conversions (1945/46) for special night attack missions
TBM-3Q: various rebuilds for post-war ECM and EW research and combat duty with prominent additions on belly, cockpit,fin and in some cases wings for reception and/or jamming
TBM-3R: conversions for seven passenger or cargo transport in at least threee configurations, all without guns and with door on right
TBM-3S: major post-war conversion program for ASW strike, most being further updated as TBM-3S2 with TBM-3E2 avionics
TBM-3W: major post-war conversion program for AEW(radar picket) duty with APS-20 radar, no armament and extra fins, most updated as TBM-3W2 with upgraded displays for two rear operators and other changes
British Designations
Avenger MK-1: TBF-1B total 402
Avenger MK-2: TBM-1; total 334
Avenger MK-3: TBM-3; total 222
Avenger AS.Mk4 : post war TBM-3S total 100
Paul Hebert
It's been a long road, but I am still in the game.
It's been a long road, but I am still in the game.
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Thanks for all the info!
....um er a simple yes or no would have sufficed...
Heh! Just kidding. Thanks everyone for the great info. I would not have know this was the paint scheme that was to match the S1 Corsair.
I had a feeling it could have been..but the experts helped me confirm this.
Thanks again guys!
Heh! Just kidding. Thanks everyone for the great info. I would not have know this was the paint scheme that was to match the S1 Corsair.
I had a feeling it could have been..but the experts helped me confirm this.
Thanks again guys!
It is the dang toy companies that have sometimes made me want to stop collecting toys!!!
Some Avenger history
Interesting historical tidbit about the Bunker Hill aircraft... In April of 1945, VT-84 TBM's, along with other air groups, lead the attack which sank the battleship Yamato. CDR Hedrick, in his Corsair, was overall mission leader of the 300-plane strike on the Yamato and its task force.
Another significant action with Avengers was the battle of Samar in October 1944 involving the "Taffy" groups of escort carriers. Avengers and Wildcats, armed for anti-sub action or with nothing at all, harrassed the Japanese ships who where attacking the escort carriers. Also about the same time, other TBM's helped sink the Zuikaku, the last surviving aircraft carrier from the Pearl Harbor attack. Thus the 'Avenger' lived up to its name.
JimBob
more info on the Battle of Samar:
http://www.bosamar.com/
Another significant action with Avengers was the battle of Samar in October 1944 involving the "Taffy" groups of escort carriers. Avengers and Wildcats, armed for anti-sub action or with nothing at all, harrassed the Japanese ships who where attacking the escort carriers. Also about the same time, other TBM's helped sink the Zuikaku, the last surviving aircraft carrier from the Pearl Harbor attack. Thus the 'Avenger' lived up to its name.
JimBob
more info on the Battle of Samar:
http://www.bosamar.com/
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Nope, not them. Had email correspondence with them last week, and a friend of mine just ordered the 1/18 Tropical 109 for my b-day.
http://www.toysnswords.com/
http://www.toysnswords.com/
If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. No use being a damn fool about it.
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Sweet! Thanks for the heads up! I went ahead and ordered a pair of Atlantics from them. They are great to work with. Robert is a great guy. I got my F-18s and F-16s from him with no problems long ago....flpickupman wrote:I stumbled across what looks like a pretty good pre-order price at toysnswords.com. $65 if you go the Priority Mail route. $61 with UPS Ground.
Great, now I won't have to go searching Walmart again for another wave not to show..... It sure sux that their distro plan blows.
-Ski
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I'm hoping there will be a large volume of Avengers distributed evenly through W-M. I still recall with fond memories the time I spotted 16 Spitfires at one W-M. Had their own display stacked on the floor in between isles. Oh, the days of old!
Distribution has been sparse in the West recently. Maybe the Atlantic Avenger can break the dry spell.
Distribution has been sparse in the West recently. Maybe the Atlantic Avenger can break the dry spell.
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distribution
...and the Pacific version to the Atlantic coast!
JimBob
JimBob
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More like $10. BadCat's is about $72 shipped. Still, that's not a bad little discount.
I'd have ordered from Toysnswords myself if I hadn't already put one in with Bad Cat. It's not enough of a difference in my mind to cancel with them.
I'd have ordered from Toysnswords myself if I hadn't already put one in with Bad Cat. It's not enough of a difference in my mind to cancel with them.
If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. No use being a damn fool about it.
-W.C. Fields
-W.C. Fields
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Did you go all the way to the page where you would click "Submit Order"?
This is what I get with 2-3 day USPS shipping. ($7.99)
SKU Product Name Qty Options Comment Unit Price Total Price
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"'NEW" .21st CENTURY TOYS XD AVENGER TBM "ATLANTIC"
1
$ 49.99 $ 49.99
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subtotal $ 49.99
Taxes $ 0.00
Shipping $ 14.98
Shipping Taxes $ 0.00
Shipping Subtotal $ 14.98
Total $ 64.97
And with UPS Ground ($3.99) I get this..
SKU Product Name Qty Options Comment Unit Price Total Price
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"'NEW" .21st CENTURY TOYS XD AVENGER TBM "ATLANTIC"
1
$ 49.99 $ 49.99
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subtotal $ 49.99
Taxes $ 0.00
Shipping $ 10.98
Shipping Taxes $ 0.00
Shipping Subtotal $ 10.98
Total $ 60.97
The 109 my friend ordered was also assessed a $7.00 handling fee.
Is this what you encountered? Or is it just us here in Flordia getting hosed?
This is what I get with 2-3 day USPS shipping. ($7.99)
SKU Product Name Qty Options Comment Unit Price Total Price
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"'NEW" .21st CENTURY TOYS XD AVENGER TBM "ATLANTIC"
1
$ 49.99 $ 49.99
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subtotal $ 49.99
Taxes $ 0.00
Shipping $ 14.98
Shipping Taxes $ 0.00
Shipping Subtotal $ 14.98
Total $ 64.97
And with UPS Ground ($3.99) I get this..
SKU Product Name Qty Options Comment Unit Price Total Price
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"'NEW" .21st CENTURY TOYS XD AVENGER TBM "ATLANTIC"
1
$ 49.99 $ 49.99
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subtotal $ 49.99
Taxes $ 0.00
Shipping $ 10.98
Shipping Taxes $ 0.00
Shipping Subtotal $ 10.98
Total $ 60.97
The 109 my friend ordered was also assessed a $7.00 handling fee.
Is this what you encountered? Or is it just us here in Flordia getting hosed?
If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. No use being a damn fool about it.
-W.C. Fields
-W.C. Fields
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Started the process of checking it, but I haven't ordered from them so I would have had to put in shipping and billing address and got a password and all that crap. So I didn't get to check on the bottom line. But acccording to your info, with UPS ground shipping, doesn't it still come out to about $17 difference. Still a pretty big difference. I have never bought from either so have no favoritism towards either one. Always seemed odd to me that one dealers "special" price would still be $20 more than another dealers. Don't like trickey dealers though who have charges that you might not see until the very end of checking out, such as "handling charges". I can fully understand dealers charging more for "exclusives". That makes sense.
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You are definitely right as far as where the price stands now. When the pre order was initially offered, Bad Cat's price was $65 plus $8 shipping. So that accounts for the difference in price. Teamski gives Toysnswords a good review, so I'd suggest doing business with them. Especially since the savings is now greater.
If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. No use being a damn fool about it.
-W.C. Fields
-W.C. Fields