XD and Ebay and "handling" charges

Razor17019 · Post by **Razor17019** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:13 pm

I don't know if this is correct forum to enter this in, so feel free to move it if need be.
Anyway, I am having problems with a "seller" on Ebay. I won his auction of 3 XD figures and he did not have a freight charge listed. I figured it can't be more than 7-10 bucks if that much. No, he had the freaking nerve to send me shipping/handling charge of 15.95!!! for 3 stinking figures.
So, I emailed him to let him know what I thought about his gouging in freight cost, but in a nice way.
He says that if I don't pay up, I will be reported and banned from Ebay!
So, I took it to Ebay and they basically said was: the seller can charge any amount in shipping/handling charges they choose.
Okay- so I emailed the guy back to try and bury the hatchet and tell him let's just split the shipping fees and try to make this thing work.
No GO. He says, "If you want to back out of transaction thats fine, but
you will recieve --- feedback. You do not have to follow thru . I will relist"

What a CROCK!!! Ebay is suppose to protect the seller and buyer and I feel like I got the shaft!
Anyone else run into this kind of thing? If so, I would love to hear the details and any advice for me to handle this "seller".
Thanks for listening to my Rant!

Website · Post by **Teamski** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:29 pm

Yep, that's horse crap in my book. I feel for you buddy. Shipping nazis should be killed for their scalps.............

-Ski

Razor17019 · Post by **Razor17019** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:04 pm

Boomboomjr,
LOL! Thanks I needed that.

Ski-
Amen brother!

WGP Klaus · Post by **WGP Klaus** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:15 pm

Rule of thumb regarding Evilbay and S&H charges. If a seller doesn't list "Flat Charge" or "Shipping at actual cost" always, and I mean always..email said person and get a quote. Nine times out of ten, if a charge isn't listed within the ad it's a case of absurd "handling" charges. Some of these folks will rake you over the coals, and sometimes it's the ones that claim to ship at "actual cost". Back in the early days of ebay you would be given a shipped cost, and the seller would claim he/she took it to the post office to get the charge, you'd receive the package with postage clearly printed on the parcel, low and behold the difference is +$10.00 in some cases. You really need to watchout for folks like this, as you found out, they'll take you to the cleaners if given the opportunity.

Best recourse for you, would be to purchase the items, lesson learned, this way you won't receive negative feedback from the person. If you're soo bent that you refuse to pay the absurd charges, to make a point..remember, it's your job to inquire as to things that literally aren't printed out for you, never assume anything when it comes to evilbay, it will comeback to bite you in the arse in the end.

My $0.02

Razor17019 · Post by **Razor17019** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:35 pm

WGP Klaus,
Good points.
Thanks for your comments.

Jesse James · Post by **Jesse James** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 11:44 pm

On one hand, I wholeheartedly agree that the "handling" fees are bogus... Sellers have realized they can gouge shipping and tack on "handling", and basically ream the buyers.

Ebay's sort of got its hands tied in the situation, and they really are losing out because it's a way the seller is cheating the system to make extra $ and without any legitimacy, and the buyers are the only ones who suffer, as does Ebay traffic. I for one won't go to auctions with outrageous shipping, and that means my traffic at Ebay (as limited as it was) is now highly limited.

With that said...

The seller's in the right, unfortunately for you. Without a shipping quote listed, you're to contact and ask what shipping charges are going to be. Rarely do I ever even see it NOT mentioned. Unless the Seller lists the shipping charges (or gives you the USPS/UPS calculator feature), then you're SOL on it. You bid, you entered an agreement by doing so, and without full knowledge of the shipping fees but that's not on him.

Live and learn's all I can say... I agree it blows, bigtime, but your feedback will suffer for that unless you have a very high rating of positive feedback already set.

Youc an leave him negative too, and often times sellers will not bite negative feedback and try working it out, but in this instance Ebay is gonna back him. YOu've got no evidence to your defense because you bid "blind" in a sense.

Sucks, I know.

Post by **aferguson** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 1:09 am

I had a situration like that where i was the buyer and i felt the seller's shipping charges were excessive. $20 when i knew it could be shipped for $10 or so. The bottom line is that

A) ebay doesn't really care very much and only made a weak attempt to moderate the dispute

B) Eventually Ebay sided with the seller and said thsy they can charge any 'reasonable' hankdling fee so long as they state in their auction that there is a handling fee of some kind....i was expected to have emailed before bidding to find out how much it was.

So i had to pay up or get a non-paying bidder strike from the seller (which is far worse than negative feedback).

While the charge in your case seems high, percentage-wise it is in fact only $5 or so too high so ebay looks upon this as reasonable.

My advice is to email the seller back and say that if you are forced to pay what you feel are excessive shipping charges than you will feel obliged to leave negative feedback to warn other potential buyers that the seller's shipping charges are way too high.

He/she will threaten to leave retaliatory feedback; let them. There is really not that much to be fearred from negative feedback unless you have a lot of it. A seller should be farm more concerned about a neg stating 'excessive shipping charges' than a buyer should be about a strike from a seller, as long as you've paid.

Pay with Paypal if possible so the seller can't give you a non-paying bidder stike, even though you paid (ie they lie, out of spite). If they do leave a neg saying you didn't pay, when if fact you did, just leave a response in your feedback to the seller's neg stating you paid with Paypal, on time, and post the Paypal transaction number and then leave follow up feedback to the seller stating they lied about you not paying.

I know it's gauling but i think the best thing for you to do is to pay the extra $5 and leave a negative to warn others about this guy/girl.

Razor17019 · Post by **Razor17019** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 6:37 am

Ferg,
Thanks. I think I will follow your advise and pay him through paypal. Leave negative feedback towards the end of the 30-31 day cycle before he can ding me. I can warn the rest of Ebay about this fraud. Worst part of this is, on his auction he say,"Please bid I need to buy baby food." If this is true,(which I don't think it is), it's sad he paid over 30.00 for 3 figures when he should have been feeding his kid.
Thanks again, Ferg.

Razor17019 · Post by **Razor17019** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 6:44 am

Oh, I just looked at the auction and he does NOT accept Paypal.
Any problems anyone sees in sending this slime a money order??
Of course he can say he never got it, but can't a money order be traced to see if it has been cashed??
Any thoughts anyone?
Thanks!

Post by **aferguson** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 7:31 am

well i dont think he's going to rip you off......and yes a money order can be traced.

I doubt seriously if he will leave retaliatory neg. saying you didn't pay when in fact you did but in the unlikely event he does keep your money order receipt, which has a number on it and you can prove it was cashed. If he tries to hit you with a non-paying bidder strike (very unlikely he will) you could always send a copy of your money order receipt to Ebay. When he gives you a strike, Ebay refunds him his seller fees on that item. They would take a dim view of him lying to (in their eyes) get his Ebay fees refunded, when you in fact did pay.

When your item arrives look at the actual shipping cost and remember what you paid. If there is a big difference then that's the neg. feedback you leave. Something like "charged $15.50 shipping;actual cost was $6.80. Outrageous!"

Most sellers, myself included, tend to charge a couple of bucks more for shipping than the actual cost to help defer the cost of wrapping paper, tape, ebay fees, paypal fees etc But $15 for three figures is excessive in my opinion. I bet the actual shipping charges will be under $4.

Post by **aferguson** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 7:37 am

By the way, he is not allowed to charge whatever handling charges he wants. Ebay rules are very specific and say he can charge any REASONABLE handling fee he wants, so long as he states in his auction that one will be charged. As i said in my earlier post though, Ebay sees handling fees of $5-$10 as reasonable.

If you decide not to pay you won't be banned from Ebay. The worst is that he leaves negative and will apply for credit through ebay to get his end of auction fees back, which will give you a strike from ebay. Once you get three strikes your account is suspended for good. So a strike is not the end of the world but not desirable either.

I'd pay the extra few bucks shipping and then leave the nasty neg. feedback. It will do him a lot of harm in lost sales in future i bet.

Rule of thumb: always be wary of sellers that don't advertise their shipping fees. They are usually trying to gouge.

Razor17019 · Post by **Razor17019** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 7:39 am

Yes, I add a few bucks to cover cost for my auctions too.
I sometimes get burned when something weights a little more than I thought. I look at the whole thing as lose a little here, make a little on next one. I look upon this auction as a learning lesson too.
Thanks again for your good advice.

Gunner · Post by **Gunner** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:11 am

A couple of tips.

Use a USPS Money Order.

Send it with a minimum of "Return Receipt Requested" (I would send it certified and make the guy sign for it).

Then, if he claims non-receipt of payment, print everything out and file a complaint with the postal inspectors. They have NO HEART, and take GREAT PLEASURE in sending people to prison for very long terms.

momaw nadon · Post by **momaw nadon** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 7:02 pm

I like the sellers that offer a good shipping charge, like $8 to ship a diecast car and then when you receive the package a month down the road and the postage is less the $2 and by Media Mail. Which the car is nothing to do with media. I think the USPS needs to start checking media packages and start cracking down on these crooks.

I fell for you Razor. I had many dealings with those type of sellers and ebay gives you nothing to help. I think they need to change their shipping policies.
momaw nadon

Razor17019 · Post by **Razor17019** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 7:14 pm

As always, you guys are very knowledgable and supportive.
You all have given me a great deal to think about.
I am following Ferg's advice, but really want to pursue boomboomjr's line of action... (anyone know where I can get a chicken??)
Thanks very much.

vmf214 · Post by **vmf214** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 10:05 pm

Ebay is generally pretty good at keeping sellers from ripping you off on shipping, they call it "fee circumvention" which means sellers that sell low and charge excessive shipping in order to avoid a high final value fee and also it keeps their listing costs down. I once was the only bidder on a few diecast planes at .99, won the auction and low and behold the shipping was $30.95!!!!!!! These few little planes didn't weigh over a pound! Later on ran in to almost an exact situation again and reported it to ebay by filing a "fee circumvention" complaint against the seller, ebay waived my obligation to complete the auction. Not to say this is your situation but I am shocked ebay didn't investigate...

Jesse James · Post by **Jesse James** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:12 am

If you leave negative, he'll leave you negative back whether you paid or not... Your best bet is to leave neutral, or don't leave feedback at all till he does... You're not obliged to do so, but I'd be wary of leaving negatives when YOU WEREN'T IN THE RIGHT.

I can't stress this enough, and I'm not dumping on your opinion Aferg, but the reality is it's the BUYER'S responsibility to know what you're getting into, not his responsibility to charge you exact actual shipping and nothing more.

I said before that I agree it's a rip-off and it's nothing but a way to squeak out extra $ from someone... It's a sham, I'll never deny that, but YOU are in the wrong. You leave him negative feedback and I guarantee he gives you the same claiming you were hostile, and he has the proof... He's got the correspondence where YOU claim you now want to alter the deal after it's been agreed upon. You don't have a leg to stand on, pot to piss in, whatever way you wanna put it.

Leaving a negative begets a negative, and I dunno how much feedback you have but if it's low and you have ONE negative, you're gonna maybe face some hesitant sellers dealing with you, and definitely run into potential buyers if you list something who are leary of you.

To me, this is a live and learn situation. Don't bid without knowing the deal on shipping, and save ALL communications you get/send. You give him a negative and he has every route to get it A) removed from his history (he can prove to Ebay you had no legitimate right to do so), and B) to leave you a negative that you CAN'T get removed.

I say bite your loss and move on, because 1 negative can be very detrimental, especially if you've got low feedback rating. I have around 30 positive, and I've been around there since Ebay was fairly new still, and I still get sometimes a beef on a negative I have on my record from when I started. One negative in a situation I made a mistake in and it can still haunt me.

Be careful what you do, and how much this $5 is worth to you.

WGP Klaus · Post by **WGP Klaus** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 5:19 am

aferguson wrote:By the way, he is not allowed to charge whatever handling charges he wants. Ebay rules are very specific and say he can charge any REASONABLE handling fee he wants, so long as he states in his auction that one will be charged. As i said in my earlier post though, Ebay sees handling fees of $5-$10 as reasonable.

If you decide not to pay you won't be banned from Ebay. The worst is that he leaves negative and will apply for credit through ebay to get his end of auction fees back, which will give you a strike from ebay. Once you get three strikes your account is suspended for good. So a strike is not the end of the world but not desirable either.

I'd pay the extra few bucks shipping and then leave the nasty neg. feedback. It will do him a lot of harm in lost sales in future i bet.

Rule of thumb: always be wary of sellers that don't advertise their shipping fees. They are usually trying to gouge.

True in regards to what Evilbay specifies...however, they specify a ton of various things can and can't be done, yet they never seem to enforce those things untill it's been brought to their attention. They're never consistant when it comes to making sure sellers adhere to rules, they're very selective, and yes..rely on buyers or even other sellers to report violations.

In regards to leaving "nasty" feedback, I don't think I would go that route if you're looking to use your feedback as reference for other trades/sales etc, as some persons..such as myself, generally read negative and neutral feedbacks to determine whether the person may be an individual that is particularly "whiney". I'd leave stern feedback, just mentioning that " the seller charges a HIGH handling fee, so beware and don't make the same mistake I did (accepting partial blame is always good..lol) and email seller for a shipping quote prior to bidding so you don't get in for more than you bargained for". Always seems to work better when you're level headed as opposed to going out for vengence..lol ok ok, most of the time.

Post by **aferguson** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 6:03 am

agreed...by nasty i just meant leave a negative; poor choice of words on my part. It's always best to leave unemotional, objective negative feedback otherwise you can come across as a suck and no one takes it seriously.

Leaving negative feedback in a mature, objective manner carries alot more clout with those who review the feedback...

I still say don't be afraid of a retaliatory neg. If you don't warn others about how this guy does business he's just going to keep screwing people in future..

Razor17019 · Post by **Razor17019** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 6:40 am

Jesse-
I agree that negative gets a negative feedback. That part of the problem with Ebay's feedback system. You can't be a good guy like Ferg is trying tell me to be and still not get dinged by the other guy. I had a guy just lie through his teeth about me in his negative feedback. But for this guy, I wouldn't mind taking a hit on a negative to discourage him in doing it and buyers from making the same mistake I did. Yeah, I should have emailed him before I bid, I have heard that from Ebay and from other board members. My only excuse is the thrill of the bid- I was up against another board member, the auction was winding down and I wanted to win the auction. Everyone gets the bid fever and does stupid things sometimes.
I really didn't think that this post would generate this much conversation. But it's nice to see a good healty airing of this on our board. 90% of the trading on Ebay in XD is done by members of this board.
Anyway- Jesse, yes- it's a learning experience for me and should be for others reading this. I take my lumps and move on.
Funny, I had a similar situation begin last night- won an auction on a really beat up Stuka XD plane (that would have been for a wrecked dio). The guy quoted me one shipping price and then came back and told me the box was oversized and had to ship though DHL (which I hate!) and would cost me more money to ship.
We emailed back and forth and finally he send me via Ebay a mutual agreement to not got through with the deal. No one was dinged or hurt by this and we both walked away on good terms.
Some people have common sense and respect others and some don't.
Thanks-

ParatrooperCarbine · Post by **ParatrooperCarbine** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:01 pm

IMHO, the guy ripping people off with outrageous shipping that he doesn't disclose in the auction is the guy at fault.

MK · Post by MK » Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:44 pm

ParatrooperCarbine wrote:IMHO, the guy ripping people off with outrageous shipping that he doesn't disclose in the auction is the guy at fault.

I disagree. Its up to the buyer to check the shipping price before. If I see an auction without shipping charges, I email the seller. That way there is no surprises. Let the buyer beware.

wm69 · Post by **wm69** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 5:42 pm

I HATE shipping gougers on ebay. I charge $12 to ship planes fedex ground. It costs me anywhere from $9-14 to ship a plane (that's not including boxes and tape, ok so I go dumpster diving for the boxes, but the tape gets expensive). I lose on a few of the planes I ship $1-2 each if they have to go to Kali or Wyoming, Maine etc, and I make a buck or 2 shipping close (had a guy 45 min north of me buy a "red 3" last week; only cost $7 to ship it). Point is, I don't gouge people. I used to only charge $10/plane but I figured out real quick I was losing money at that rate. I charge $15 for two planes, and some of these guys charge that for one.
As for dealing with this guy, my only neg on ebay is from a woman I bought a p47 checkertail from. She didn't respond to emails until I threatened to charge back my CC with paypal. She emailed me a fake tracking # at that time with no explanation, and when I got the plane two weeks later she'd slid two small boxes over either end of the plane and wrapped it in brown paper. Needless to say the box was toast. The plane was undamamged but had really crappy markings so I got rid of it. I insured the plane (paid extra) and she sent it parcel post with no insurance. I noticed someone else gave her - feedback and her reply was "you didn't pay for insurance" so I left here neutral feedback saying horrible packing, fake tracking #, and pocketed insurance money. She left me my only - and said "very unpleasant to deal with, wish we could all be perfect like you". I'm not perfect but I take business involving money or merchandise seriously, and try to do whatever I can to keep the other party happy and keep my end of the deal up. I did learn my lesson; wait till the other guy leaves feedback first. You leave yourself wide open if you don't. If you leave this guy a + he's likely to leave you a - just cause he can. Ebay doesn't care as long as they get your money. Wait till the period is ALMOST up for leaving feedback, then nail him with a -. The guy hasn't broken any rules, but he is screwing people, and that makes it wrong in my book. Nail him. Least then people will be warned. I always read people's negs, and if I were to see something like that I would definately check out the shipping closely.