Admiral Toys Information Q&A (Jason)

FieroDude · Post by **FieroDude** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:17 pm

MightyMustang wrote:
Jolly Roger wrote:here is somthing i think everyone wants.

Moving control surfaces that dont sag after a few times being moved!!!
all the planes - BBI have this problem.. make em tight and stuff.

front landing gear... let it swivel!!!!!! i dont know why no one else does this, i need to be able to manuver it on my 17ft Aircraft Carrier

thoose are my biggest concerns, 21st has the worst flap saggage, but my AT f86 has some horrible flaps as well, they just wanna flap around, or sag and it came that way out of the box, so these be what i say are important.
BBI's control surfaces sag? Mine havent. 21st has flap saggage? Mine hasnt. This is news to me.

I have had some problems with flap sag and floppy air brakes with a couple planes, most notably the tail on my Avenger and the air brakes on my Mig-15. I notice it less on the older 21st planes, and haven't noticed any at all on my AT or bbi planes.

tkjaer21 · Post by **tkjaer21** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:25 pm

My flap saggage is from all three companies. Especially, 21C's F-104 and BBI F4U.

Spudkopf · Post by **Spudkopf** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:27 pm

FieroDude wrote:
MightyMustang wrote:
BBI's control surfaces sag? Mine havent. 21st has flap saggage? Mine hasnt. This is news to me.

I have had some problems with flap sag and floppy air brakes with a couple planes, most notably the tail on my Avenger and the air brakes on my Mig-15. I notice it less on the older 21st planes, and haven't noticed any at all on my AT or bbi planes.

The elavators on all three of my 109Gs have a tendancy to droop, however I do not have the same problem with my 21stCT P51 or my Fw190Ds.

Sabrefan · Post by **Sabrefan** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:30 pm

Hi Jason,

Is there any news on the Hartmann CL-13? I am looking forward to getting that one.

scbvideoboy · Post by **scbvideoboy** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:50 pm

I haven't noticed any sag, and mine are all in the box

pickelhaube · Post by **pickelhaube** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:58 pm

Hello Jason.
I would like to ask a few questions if I could.
1. Who is the deciding voice on what you guys will build? You and your bro or do you guys have a panel that hashes this out?
2. Who is yor master modeler that makes your master model. Is it a group of guys on one project or just one? Is he a U. S. craftman or Chinese?
3. How long does it take to make a master?
4. What is the master made of?
5. Is the price of the master a major investment or small potatoes in the grand scheme of things?
6. Who decides if the master is on or has to be redone?
7. I have never seen the process of making dicast. Do you guys just make one mold of the different parts or do you make many?
I hope I did not get carried away with the questions but I rally want to know what are the nuts and bolts of our hobby.
Thanks,
Matthew

Jason of Admiral Toys · Post by **Jason of Admiral Toys** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:24 pm

pickelhaube wrote:Hello Jason.
I would like to ask a few questions if I could.
1. Who is the deciding voice on what you guys will build? You and your bro or do you guys have a panel that hashes this out?
2. Who is yor master modeler that makes your master model. Is it a group of guys on one project or just one? Is he a U. S. craftman or Chinese?
3. How long does it take to make a master?
4. What is the master made of?
5. Is the price of the master a major investment or small potatoes in the grand scheme of things?
6. Who decides if the master is on or has to be redone?
7. I have never seen the process of making dicast. Do you guys just make one mold of the different parts or do you make many?
I hope I did not get carried away with the questions but I rally want to know what are the nuts and bolts of our hobby.
Thanks,
Matthew

Dear Matthew,

Thank you for the questions. I will try and answer them to the fullest of my abilities, without giving away the farm.

1. Who is the deciding voice on what you guys will build? You and your bro or do you guys have a panel that hashes this out?

By brother and I discuss which aircraft we like and then we approach the rest of the team and a few persons outside the company that we know we can trust.

2. Who is your master modeler that makes your master models? Is it a group of guys on one project or just one? Is he a U. S. craftsman or Chinese?

It depends on the project. Usually we have several models in the works at one time. For example, people were working with the modifications of the SBD while they are assisting with the master of the F-4 and its modifications, A-1, and several various tanks and artillery (in 1:72 scale). Much also depends on the complexity of the aircraft. One modeler will focus on the aircraft while another on the ordinance. Of course they are sitting at drafting tables beside one another so they can talk about fastening points etc. There are 25 modelers in our modeling division.

All of our master modelers with the exception, at times, of a few parts and files for tampo-prints, are Chinese modelers. The reason you use Chinese master modelers is that they know how to design a model around production. The best modelers in the US could make a great looking aircraft, but very few have made an aircraft that will be torn apart, CAD filed and then tooled out of steal. Our facility that primarily works on the 1:18 has in-house tooling. This means that after a master model is completed our facility does the tooling. You would be surprised with the number of facilities that do not have in-house tooling. It is outsourced and this complicates the process. It is best for the people that make the master models to talk directly with the engineers during construction in order to avoid complications with tooling, injection and production, down the road. The master modeler is not just concerned with making a great looking model, he is in constant contact with the engineers, and together they focus on the tooling process, injection and facilitating a straight forward production. These are all things that US designers do not understand.

3. How long does it take to make a master?

It takes anywhere from 1 day to 2 years to finish a master model. For example, we have been working on the F-4 master model since December 2005. Yes, we could have just made a great looking F-4 in about 2 months, but a great looking master model is just half the process. Refer to the above paragraph. It all comes down to the complexity of the master model and the process used. Our F-86 and ME 262 did not use a single 3 dimensional object to make the model. Drawings, photos, plans etc. were the only media used in the production of the master model. This of course takes a lot longer, then the process of CAD filing another model and then modifying to make it your own. You would be surprised by the amount of companies that use donor models to make their own master models. This of course takes a lot less time. I have used existing models for reference, but our facility goes off a set of “checklist.” I compose the checklist and send them to China for production. There is no less then 25 sets of checklist at 20-30 pages per checklist for the F-86.

4. What is the master made of?

Master models are made of a plastic compound that is easily cut either by hand or laser. A lot of sanding, filing and modifications are done to the master; therefore we use a plastic that is easily manipulated. Therefore a master is quite fragile. Here is a sad story that makes the point. Our beloved A-1 was at our facilities in Denton when our insurance company reps came for a meeting. One of the reps accidentally kicked the A-1 while walking and shattered the tail. Needless to say this puts us back about a week in production. To answer your question of why was it on the floor, it was in line for a photo shoot at the photo booth in our warehouse. He walked over to take a look at the F-4 and snap! His response was a simple “oops, sorry.”

5. Is the price of the master a major investment or small potatoes in the grand scheme of things?

In the grand scheme of things the master model is a minor investment. That being said, a master model will range from $4,000 to $40,000 for the 1:18 models. No, we have not paid $40,000 for a master model, yet.

6. Who decides if the master is on or has to be redone?

I am the first set of eyes that looks at the master model and I focus on all required modifications. When I think we have a great looking, functioning model, it is sent to the US for inspection by my brother and other members in the company. You can never have to many sets of eyes looking at these models.

However, you are never happy with the master models. We spend such a long time staring at these models that they become too familiar to us. You constantly want to add this detail here, or that detail there, but there comes a time when you say enough is enough. We have to start production at a reasonable price, and cannot spin our wheels over starting production.

7. I have never seen the process of making diecast. Do you guys just make one mold of the different parts or do you make many?

It depends on the subject. If I was injecting funnels for Loews we would have several toolings performed. This would allow for the injection of several pieces at a time. The 1:18 aircraft have one set of tooling with several dies that have all the various parts for injection encompassed in the various dies. Both halves of the wings will be in one mold, the two halves of the fuselage in another, the various small parts in another. Then you have to remember that different plastics are used in the production of these models. You have ABS, the standard plastic, PVC your softer plastics and GP or SAN, your clear or colored transparent plastics (There are hundreds more, but you get the point). Each one of the different plastics requires their own mold. We cannot inject two different plastics at the same time. Therefore you have several large and small dies.

There are other forms such as casting that does not require tooling. This is used in your resin and LMPABS casting etc.

To answer a question not asked by you, but many in private emails or phone calls: How much for you to make me a master model of the one aircraft I want, that I do not think we will see produced?

This is a very complicated question. If you wanted the model painted, tampo-printed, spray masked and functioning it would cost you anywhere from $15,000 to $60,000. This sounds high, and it is ridiculously high. But these would be our cost with a little mark-up to make it worth our time and resources. At those prices I would recommend you purchase two of a certain Czechoslovakian company’s models (and they would be a lot nicer)

There are a lot of steps in the production process. I have discussed them in the past and therefore will not bother you with a restatement of the process. But each step is priced with the anticipation of producing X amount. We divide the cost of production and pre-production into each aircraft and price it accordingly. So if you wanted only one aircraft you would have to pay a lot, if you want one of 100,000 you pay a lot less (purely an example amount of production). And remember that my “one off” example is of a master model of your own, and does not include tooling. That is ridiculously expensive.

I hope I answered all of your questions.

Regards,
Jason

Spudkopf · Post by **Spudkopf** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:44 pm

Jason

As always your window into the world of model manufacturing is greatly appreciated.

I must say I'm quite upset amount the fait of the A-1 master and delays that the Skyraider that will now incur.

By the way was it insured ?

Thanks a lot again.

Jericoeagle1 · Post by **Jericoeagle1** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:49 pm

Thats very interesting Jason, I had no idea of what went on. Okay so how many of us A-10 guys want to chip in for a limited edition A-10 just for us? Be generous now.

Website · Post by **Teamski** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:02 pm

Amazing Jason! Now that is frank talk about the business. Thanks for sharing. It goes to show all of us just what kind of work you folks put into your products. It sure makes me appreciate the 262 a lot more!!

-Ski

pickelhaube · Post by **pickelhaube** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:19 pm

Hello Jason,
Thanks for the candid and insightful information. You have cleared a few things up that I have wonderd about for years. Like Ski said this make me appriciate our hobby even more. What is this mysterious scuptling plastic that you use? Can the average laymen get?
I enjoy your planes and look forward for your new releases. Some of your projects I have been wanting for years. Keep up the good work and thanks again for answering my questions.
Matthew

STUKA · Post by **STUKA** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:47 pm

Jason,
Thanks for the answers - I also have a bit more appreciation for the whole process -
a follow up question - how much of that cost involves taxes -

CW4USARMY · Post by **CW4USARMY** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:09 pm

Jason, Thanks for taking the time to explain the processes to us. Understanding everything that goes into producing one of these birds makes collecting them that much more fun and interesting. As always, your commitment to keeping us collectors informed is very much appreciated.

Birddog · Post by **Birddog** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:34 pm

Thank you Jason as always for such great insight.

And Jericoe, I'm in....

Plane Nuts · Post by **Plane Nuts** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:41 pm

Jason: To go along with the current line of questioning... In some of the information that has popped out of Hasbro, they describe a process where their designers figure out all of the specific pieces of a toy (articulation details, engineering compromises, etc.) that they want to do that will allow the toy to meet a price point. These details are drawn in multi views (front, back, side) that are called a sculpt input that are then given to their sculptors...all before it ever goes to China. Now, I know that your situation is different because you can get a better product by doing the sculpting in China, but is Hasbro's sculpt input akin to your checklists, or are you much more free form by providing reference documentation?

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:48 pm

Jason thank you for the insight and I hope the incident with the A-1 will not delay the release by to much.

tmanthegreat · Post by **tmanthegreat** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:06 pm

Thank you Jason for the insight as to how your company makes its planes

I guess some of the other 1:18 manufacturers go through a similar process, despite their reluctance to tell us

I'm glad AT is so open about what goes on with their company, sure makes for great relations between the maker and consumer!

Quixote511 · Post by **Quixote511** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:26 am

Very interesting read, thank you for your candor.

Plane Nuts · Post by **Plane Nuts** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:19 am

Jason of Admiral Toys wrote:Our beloved A-1 was at our facilities in Denton when our insurance company reps came for a meeting. One of the reps accidentally kicked the A-1 while walking and shattered the tail. Needless to say this puts us back about a week in production. To answer your question of why was it on the floor, it was in line for a photo shoot at the photo booth in our warehouse. He walked over to take a look at the F-4 and snap! His response was a simple “oops, sorry.”

Regards,
Jason

So, how much does your insurance company pay when one of their agents destroys an essential article of your business?? Or is that one of the things they classify under "An Act of God?"

Killerf6 · Post by **Killerf6** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:06 am

Jason, thank you for the insight into Admiral toys process for building our models. I along with (I believe) most other members of this board appreciate your willingness to give us a glimps inside of Admiral toys.

Morian Miner · Post by **Morian Miner** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:30 am

Jason,

Great insight. I'd love to disagree about your comments regarding US designer, but unfortunately I see it too often. Designers and engineers often are kept separate from the actual manufacturers, and don't understand what it takes to make good models. I've been doing ProE and Solidworks for almost 10 years now, and am still surprised how many people don't comprehend just because I can make pretty pictures with my models, its not like it can ever be made.

tkjaer21 · Post by **tkjaer21** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:05 pm

Many thanks for the follow up questions. It is very interesting that you have to work with so many different people. I bet, at times, everything must seem out of control.

warhawker · Post by **warhawker** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:41 am

Thank you for the information and always responding to our questions. It is actions such as these that set you guys apart.

Juneau@1 · Post by **Juneau@1** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:06 pm

Jason,
Can you please post some news and pictures of the upcoming tank releases?
Thanks,
Eric

MIGMADMAVIS · Post by **MIGMADMAVIS** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:17 pm

Is there any new news on the Dauntless release, Im so excited for that to come out, and Im not sure if I can wait any longer

Anyone know when this bird might come out??

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Admiral Toys Information Q&A (Jason)

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