Review of the Last 8 Dragon Armor Releases

[Mr. Football]

60044 Desert Challenger 2 w/Armor Upgrade -
This is one of Dragon Armor's best yet. The sheer size, and looks are to behold. It seems to have a fairly high metal content compared to other Dragon Armor releases. The paint job and weathering are superb. I especially love the detailing of the extra armored skirting (armour for you brits). This is a terrific model, and especially cool because of its timely nature as it is currently deployed in Iraq.



60051 Leopard 2 A5 -
A nice representation of one of the three best tanks in the world (M1A2, Chally 2, Leopard 2A5-A6). Like the Chally, we're lucky that Dragon decided to go ahead and model this, as you likely wouldn't see it anywhere else. I love the paint job, however I must complain about the lack of METAL! I thought these were supposed to be DIE CAST! No metal, no 5 Smiling Mr. Football's. Nevertheless, this is a really nice piece that you can imagine is a good tank, though none have ever seen a lick of combat.



60052 Leopard 2 A6 -
See above. Further observations about the vehicle unrelated to the model. That is one long barrel. Must be cumbersome. And correct me if I'm wrong, but does the new Leo add-on turret armor present a humongous shot trap? And lastly...how about some METAL?



60019 Tiger I - Mid Production SPztAbt 509-
What can I say, it's a Tiger. Another Tiger...but with a really nice looking paint job (rot braun und dunkelgelb). I like this model. I also like the switch towards using what appears to be metallic cabling. You can never have enough Tigers right? (wrong...see below).



60020 Tiger I - Mid Production SPztAbt 508-
Another Tiger??? Ok, well some may like this one, but personally I'm not too jazzed about the vomit-colored paint scheme...though I'm sure somebody likes it. One man's art...



60033 Bradley M2A2 "Baghdad" 2003 -
Another must have if you collect modern armor. This goes perfectly along with your Abrams, and even your Chally 2. Nice detail work, in Dragon's first attempt at an APC. Watch for bent barrels though, I noticed several boxes at the dealer that had bent chain guns.



60034 Bradley M2A2 "Big Red One" -

Same as above but with a nice Woodland camo scheme. Nice.



60039 - Demolition Tiger w/Zimmermit -

With all these Tigers, somebody's got to repair them, that's where the 'demolition' Tiger comes in handy. Though...I'm thinking 'recovery' is a better name for this vehicle. Nice...but not essential.

[hworth18]

Football..
Actually the "Demolition" Tiger was just that.. It has been proven that the Tiger was modified to place mines and charges to blow up fortifications..
The crane mounted on the Tiger was not strong enough to even lift an engine out of a tank, much less recover one..

BTW, Great review, I don't have the Leopards yet, but I am looking forward to them..

[ltcbj]

Just to add anote about the new Panthers. Dragon has made the tabs on the turret larger than on the first one and this makes removal both easier and less likely to snap those little suckers off.

[aferguson]

This demolition Tiger was used in actual combat? It would lumber up to a fortification and delicately place charges there with everyone on the battle field shooting at it? Or was intended for after the battle use? Where and when was it actually pressed into service? Germany was on the defensive pretty much from the time the Tiger made its combat debut.

[hworth18]

According to a thread going on at The Axis History Forum, three TigerIs were converted to demolition versions when the turret was damaged and couldn't be repaired.. A heavy Tiger tank would provide much more protection when placing explosives than running up and placing them by hand..

Three Tigers were converted by s.Pz.Abt. 509, and later turned over to s.Pz.Abt. 501 when the s.Pz.Abt. 509 refitted with Tiger IIs.
One Tiger was converted by s.Pz.Abt. 508 which was later captured by the Brits and mistaken for a Bergpanzer.

[aferguson]

Interesting but where would they have been used? With germany on the defensive what fortifications did they have to demolish?

[lightning2000]

Interesting but where would they have been used? With germany on the defensive what fortifications did they have to demolish?

I agree with you Aferguson. Since they were introduced to battle in Italy after the Allies had landed in late 1943, the Germans had few opportunities to go over on the offensive and blow enemy fortifications. More likely they were occassionally used to lay highly sensitive pressure mines along roads.

Keep in mind too that due to their weight, Tigers wouldn't stray far from roads for fear of bogging down in mud, swamps, etc. My guess is that they were used to tow vehicles off the battlefield using their tow hooks, and used the crane every so often to pull lighter vehicles out of the mud like halftracks, trucks etc. When they were used to lay mines, I think it would've been very time consuming. Imagine trying to hook a pressure mine to the end of the crane lay it in an already dug out hole, detach the hook, then pour dirt over the mine so it would be properly concealed. All of this could've been done far easier and quicker by engineers on foot.

Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.bigstep.com

[hworth18]

My understanding is that they were used in the same principle as the Sturmtiger, they could be used on pillboxes or holed up enemy troops.. But if you REALLY want to debate this, I'll give you a link and you can go at it with the Pros..

[lightning2000]

Harry,
I've noticed on several occassions that you get flustered if anyone challenge's your assertions. Be that as it may, you made a comment about how the vehicle was used on the battlefield and I'm going to address it. Common sense would dictate you don't employ it to attack pillboxes when other more practical means are available. Why would you move a tank without a gun on top of the enemy's position when you could just as easily send a real tank and fire at the position from afar?

Come on, I don't care who these supposed pros are, the Bergetiger would've been used in the same way as the Bergepanzers that came before them - recovery, pure and simple. German Tigers and Panthers were prone to breakdowns which is well documented. It would take a vehicle of equal weight to get them back to the workshops or a winch to yank out the engines and fix them on the scene. To employ them to lay mines would be folly. A Teller mine was man-portable and could be laid in a matter of minutes to stop a tank by an engineer. To say that they were used to tear open a pillbox is ridiculous. Ever hear of a flamethrower? Do any of the German manuals -- which I have several -- ever once indicate that a Bergetiger could be used to crack a fortified line? The answer is no. You suppress the enemy's fire with direct fire weaponry then have engineers crawl up to the pillboxes and finish the job with flamethrowers. End of story.

Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.bigstep.com

[lightning2000]

Harry,
BTW, dont take this as a personal attack cause its not. But just because five smart guys get together and agree that you can use a golf club as a baseball bat, doesn't mean you're going to follow their advice or question their illogical conclusion. If the Bergetiger looks like a Bergepanzer, and you know what they were used for, then it would follow that a Bergetiger was designed to do the same thing just with larger vehicles. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then we're talking about things only a duck would do...

Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.bigstep.com

[aferguson]

Here's a blurb i found on the net:

"For a number of years, this vehicle has incited a lot of conversation among Tiger fans as to its real purpose. When the one photo of this vehicle appeared in AFV News 30 years ago, the immediate assumption was that it had to be a "Bergetiger" as there was a "Bergepanther" and other "Bergepanzer" maintenance and recovery vehicles. But in comparison with those vehicles, this tank did not have a spade or a heavy duty winch, nor did its turret appear fixed which would give it sufficient leverage to deal with heavy items like a Maybach engine.

Other theories did not work either. One idea that "war weary" tanks would be modified to use as recovery vehicles worked well with vehicles like the US M3 Lee, but there was never really any such thing as a "war weary" Tiger. Careful reading of the histories of these tanks by noted German armor experts and Russian writings on the combat with them indicates that these were status machines, eagerly fought over by both sides when damaged in action. The Germans repaired and rebuilt them for combat, while the Russians sent them off to distant tank gunnery ranges as targets. (One question of note is how many German soldiers died recovering knocked out Tigers from the Soviet forces during the war and how many Russians died trying to get them back?)

The most current theory holds that this tank was one of three converted in Italy to use as mine clearing vehicles, handling explosive charges used in clearing, as it would be virtually impervious to most unfocused explosions at point blank range. This would also indicate why its turret appeared to be functional and why the crane was relatively lightweight. Still, it remains an enigma as to why the Germans would waste such a useful defensive machine on this function."

Mine clearing makes a bit more sense but as stated, a strange role for such a valiable vehicle.

[lightning2000]

Hello AFerguson,
While mine clearing might be one role for the vehicle, why, if you're on the defensive, would you want to clear mines? If anything, you'd want to sew as many mines as possible to make the enemy's advance as costly as possible. The Germans never had any plans to counterattack in Italy where these vehicles were found. And, if you're looking to clear mines, there were other more sensible options at hand rather than risk a vehicle of this nature.

Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.bigstep.com

[hworth18]

Harry,
I've noticed on several occassions that you get flustered if anyone challenge's your assertions. Be that as it may, you made a comment about how the vehicle was used on the battlefield and I'm going to address it.

Lightning,
Honestly, I don't get flustered when someone disagrees with me.. I am just like any other member on here in the sense that if someone disagrees with my opinion, I try to back it up..
I know I am not perfect and I will certainly admit it when I am wrong.. I have done it before and I am sure that sometime in the future I will do it again.. And in defense of myself, I made that particular comment because I am NOT a pro when it comes to German armor. I don't know anyone who is, but there are people that are more knowledgeable about these things than I.

One thing I have learned over the years of collecting and building models of German armor is "Never say Never".. Sure it might be unreasonable that someone could conceive a vehicle used in this particular manner, but it might just have served a useful purpose to the Germans in 1944.. My statement was regarding my general knowledge of this particular vehicle with some support from a well recognized military forum..

If anything, I would say that you are the one that gets flustered.. Look at the reply you gave to Aferg when he pulled a fact off the net.. Basically disbelief that this vehicle could have been used in that manner even when offered reasonable proof...

This fact basically agreed with my statement, and you're NOT happy with that..

Have a nice day..

[lightning2000]

Harry,
What Aferguson posted was a "theory" not a fact. And to automatically say that the Bergetiger had no spade based upon examining one photo isn't all that inspiring either. Maybe it was removed or was obscured based upon the camera angle. Conjecture is a great thing -- maybe the vehicle was used to tow Fat Albert Kesselring around the front, hmm?

My point is this: at this point in the war, the Germans had gone over to the strategic defensive, especially in Italy where the terrain could be used with great effect to create a tenacious defense. To argue that the vehicle was used to place mines on pillboxes or clear minefields are suspicious at best, ludicrous at worse.

Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.bigstep.com

[Hoverbug]

The idea of minelaying wouldn't be that far fetched if you are in an environment where you are in line of sight of snipers and/or mortars and/or artillery. Given the mountainous terrain on the Italian Front, the Allies frequently had a line of sight well into some German held areas. If you saw a bunch of guys coming out to lay mines would you just sit there? How about charges on a bridge as the Allies moved closer? A damaged Tiger would seem a very safe way to work under the range of indirect fire and allied observation. Personally, I can't image the crane on this thing lifting much more than a 1,000 lb.

[aferguson]

If i'm not mistaken there were different forms of bergepanthers. The one with the crane on it was not a tow vehicle but was a munitions schlepper; the crane being used to load and unload ammunition from its makeshift cargo bay. The crane was not used for towing. Since the bergetiger does not appear to have a cargo bay of any kind it is reasonable to assume that the crane was not used for loading and unloading ammo from its own vehicle.

Looking at the crane, there is no way it could have been strong enough to tow anything or lift anything of significant weight...like a vehicle. Even a kubelwagen would most likely have been too heavy for such a delicate looking crane. Even if it could, to think that three precious tigers were modified for the sole purpose of lifting and towing light vehicles is probably inaccurate.

Now, clearly the German's had some purpose in mind for these vehicles when they bulit them. For the most part Germans were good engineers and had good ideas...so it's logical to assume there was a genuine, important purpose for this vehicle that justified the modification of three of their best tanks.

What that purpose is, i really don't know....it does seem a bit of a minor mystery. Perhaps they were modified for some special operation that never came to pass (some offensive operation that would have required mine clearing or fortified postion destruction), perhaps they were unfinished and were never fully modified for their intended purpose or perhaps their was some clever use devised for these vehicles that suited special circumstances that were going on in Italy at that point of the war that we can't imagine, simply because we weren't there at the time..

It is an interesting vehicle from the mystery aspect....reminds me of many prehistoric animals that are of bizarre shape or have forms that scientists endlessly debate the function of (eg T-rex's little tiny arms that were so small they couldn't even reach its mouth: what function did they serve on such an enormous animal?....tons of specualtion but the answer may never be known).

[lightning2000]

Hoverbug,
The Germans typically laid mines at night so unless snipers had infra-red scopes I doubt they were in much peril. For a Bergetiger to lay a mine, it would have to be done during the day, leaving it vulnerable to direct or indirect fire weaponry. Furthermore, I doubt very much the driver/ mine laying operator could see what he was doing using narrow vision slits. Why drive around in a big clunky machine that made a cacophany of noise when you could just as easily slither up to a spot under the cover of darkness to sew mines. As for the crane, perhaps the Division's workshop stopped at converting three vehicles because they realized too late that the crane/winch was incapable of handling larger loads.

Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.bigstep.com

[aferguson]

I agree that it is unlikely this vehicle was used for sewing mines or laying heavy charges against fortifications, upon further reflection (while taking my morning shower ). The mine laying Lightning has coverd...just doesn't make sense, as he says.

As far as fortification destruction (a la the Sturmtiger): the only way it could do it was to have a huge explosive charge already dangling from the crane. To think it was to trundle across the battlefield with a huge explosive charge hanging five feet in front of its turret (one round hitting this charge would destroy the whole vehicle), roll up to a fortification and then set it down, somehow unhooking it from the crane, which would probably require crewmen getting out of the vehicle (which sort of defeats the whole purpose of using it in the first place).

I also don't think it was used for vehicle recovery. Tank recovery was a far more pressing concern on the eastern and western fronts than it was in Italy yet the bergetiger did not appear on either of these other two fronts...if it had i'm sure we'd know about it.

What its intended purpose was i really don't know. As i said, possibly to suit some special operation or some circumstance that we can't imagine simply because we aren't intimately familiar with the tactical situation at the time they were devised... (italian partisans were a big problem...maybe these bergetigers were used behind the lines at workshops and were intdended to give mechanics some protection during certain maintainance activities??....maybe the running gear on these vehicles wasn't very good any more but was adequate for very short distance travel such as would be seen in a depot).

I dunno.

[lightning2000]

AFerguson,
Agreed. They were most probably used as a munitions schlepper, engine recovery platform, and perhaps used to tow lighter equipment such as a kubelwagen or schwimmwagen. They could've also been used to carry timber to a newly created fallback line to build a defensive position. Keep in mind one other important point. Most of Italy is hilly. Traditional munitions schleppers would probably have a tough time going up and down hilly roads if they were fully loaded. A vehicle the size of a Tiger would probably have a much easier go of it.

One further point needs to be mentioned in regards to supposed demolitions work. Imagine, if you will, the Allies are on the advance up the Italian penninsula. If they were used for demolition work, you are presupposing that the Allies stopped long enough to dig in and bring up concrete mixers to pour and build pillboxes while under direct observation of the enemy. You are also requiring me to believe that this demolition tank trundled up to this pillbox in full light on muddy terrain while under enemy observation to get right next to the pillbox. Never mind that a smart heavy weapons platoon might have a bazooka handy to blow up the vehicle or tank destroyer nearby to blow it to smithereens. Then you are asking me to believe that after the charge has been placed and the fuse set by one of the crewmembers, the occupants of the pillbox are sitting inside oblivious to what's going on, just waiting for the charge to go off. And, after the charge has gone off and the pillbox has been destroyed, the Germans then launch a counterattack. To seize what? First base.

Come on, lets get real here...

Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.bigstep.com

[hworth18]

I agree that it is unlikely this vehicle was used for sewing mines or laying heavy charges against fortifications, upon further reflection (while taking my morning shower ). The mine laying Lightning has coverd...just doesn't make sense, as he says.

As far as fortification destruction (a la the Sturmtiger): the only way it could do it was to have a huge explosive charge already dangling from the crane. To think it was to trundle across the battlefield with a huge explosive charge hanging five feet in front of its turret (one round hitting this charge would destroy the whole vehicle), roll up to a fortification and then set it down, somehow unhooking it from the crane, which would probably require crewmen getting out of the vehicle (which sort of defeats the whole purpose of using it in the first place).

I also don't think it was used for vehicle recovery. Tank recovery was a far more pressing concern on the eastern and western fronts than it was in Italy yet the bergetiger did not appear on either of these other two fronts...if it had i'm sure we'd know about it.

What its intended purpose was i really don't know. As i said, possibly to suit some special operation or some circumstance that we can't imagine simply because we aren't intimately familiar with the tactical situation at the time they were devised... (italian partisans were a big problem...maybe these bergetigers were used behind the lines at workshops and were intdended to give mechanics some protection during certain maintainance activities??....maybe the running gear on these vehicles wasn't very good any more but was adequate for very short distance travel such as would be seen in a depot).

I dunno.

Aferg,
I agree, we don't know know what this specific purpose of this vehicle REALLY was.. The statement I made was regarding what the accepted version is now.. Whether it was actually used in this manner, we may never know.. I was just pointing out to Football that this was NOT a recovery vehicle..

[pwedeswe]

Heres a photo I found of a 'demolition' Tiger but the crane has been knocked off.

[grockwood]

Actually there was a time when the Germans were on the offensive in Italy and could use a such a vehicle. Remember Anzio. The Germans attacked and continued to attack the beach head till the Allies felt strong enough to break out. There had to have been Allied stronpoints the Germans tried to destoyed. With the American bazzooka not having much effect on a Tiger and even the 75mm armed Sherman no match, how much safer could you be sitting in a Tiger driving up to a pill box or whatever and dropping off an expolsive device.

[lightning2000]

Grockwood,
Yes, the Germans sealed off the Anzio beachhead and for a while counterattacked until naval gunfire forced them to withdraw. You're also presupposing that the Allies came ashore with concrete mixers, which would've been very low on their priority list. Somehow I don't think that happened. Even if they did, youre asking me to believe that they constructed the pillboxes under direct observation of the enemy and that these vehicles were already on hand for just such an operation.

Bazookas would've been used at very close range, not from yards away so they would've certainly had an effect on the sides of the vehicle, particularly the tracks. Come on, to say that a vehicle could be used in a role is one thing but when other more viable options are at hand, I still doubt it was used in this manner. Would you volunteer for a job of this nature?

Quick question, how do you prime the fuse after the charge is placed? You're asking me to believe that a crewmember got out of the vehicle and skirted enemy fire to set the charge or are you telling me all this was done ahead of time and the tank was slowly creeping up to the enemy position with the charge already set? If so, I think you've watched way too many war movies. Just ask an engineer whats involved with setting an explosive charge, especially when the enemy is firing .30 caliber machine guns or tossing grenades at you.

Next you're going to tell me the Japanese flew in circles around the Allied ships at the Marianas to make the gunners dizzy before diving down?

Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.bigstep.com

[aferguson]

The only fortifications i can imagine the allies using were german fortifications that they captured during their advance and subsequently put to their own use. Of course most of these fortifications would tend to be pointing in the wrong direction.

Although the currently accepted view of this vehicle is of a demolition vehicle i really can't see that as a practical application. Perhaps it was merely an expedient application and was far from ideal?

Perhaps the fact that they appeared nowhere else but in a small sector in Italy suggests that they were either to suit a very specific purpose or were a bad idea...

[lightning2000]

Hi,
Here's the way I see them as coming about. Since no record of them is found at the factory level, these vehicles were created in the field by the Wehrmacht. Since the Italian terrain is very rugged and hilly, these tanks were probably deployed in hull down positions where their chassis weren't exposed to enemy direct fire -- just their turrets. Perhaps over the course of several months, three Tigers were damaged by allied TAC aircraft or direct fire weaponry, rendering the turret and/or gun completely useless.

So now you have a driveable vehicle without a main gun. Since there are no records of Tigers being converted into flak vehicles, the next most logical use would be to turn them into recovery vehicles. My personal opinion is that they wouldn't be used to clear mines when you could do that with other means such as artillery and besides why would the Germans want to clear mines when they're happy to remain on the defense. The same holds true for a demolition role. To suggest they were used to blow up enemy fortifications is archaic when doctrine calls for other means and the Germans were more than happy to sit back and defend the Italian mainland.

So what happened next? The Germans attempted to erect cranes and winches to the main housing of the vehicle using whatever was available, perhaps taking parts from other Berge vehicles. Afterall, you dont just order these parts from a central warehouse and have them shipped via FedEx. Somehow I think the German Army was more concerned with pumping out as many tanks as possible, not recovery vehicles. Anyway, the Germans saw a need to create additional munitions schleppers and/or light recovery vehicles due to the rugged nature of the Italian terrain, hence the Bergetigers. Considering the depth and strength of the many German defensive belts, they were, in all likelihood, used to help fortify these lines.

Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.bigstep.com