Small Scale Military Headquarters

[+] > I can't get over how cool this tank really is. *

......... I wished the rear loaders / discard hatch opened to reveal the breech like on the Jagdpanther .

[+] > Anyways ; I'd bet we'll see an (S-2) Elefant , Eastern Front - Kursk 1943 version , maybe sometime next year , I hope.


=---------> I can wait ! .....................



Mitch v MG

*%+!#^@&$

[+] > *%+!#^@&$


..............* Here , here ! ! ! * ... Arrrrrrrgh !



Mitch v MG

Hopefully not. Wrong version for Kursk. There were no Elefants in that battle. Only Ferdinands.

That's kinda like repainting FOV's Tiger I DAK yellow and call it a Tunisian Tiger.

GooglyDoogly wrote:Hopefully not. Wrong version for Kursk. There were no Elefants in that battle. Only Ferdinands.

That's kinda like repainting FOV's Tiger I DAK yellow and call it a Tunisian Tiger.

correct

I am in the process of making that conversion as we speak

[+] > Well ,.. Eastern Front then , damn it . * * ... Sheesh ! *

............ I got the Elefants confused w/ the Ferdinands , which were somewhat similar . I think the Elefant was an improvement over it's predecessor then , and why it was made into a closed armored top , to keep the Russians from throwing Molotovs and grenades in there , into the fighting compartment.

............... I really hate you guys sometimes ! * ... Thanks for helping me look like a goofball ! *



Mitch v MG

only the Ferdinands were open top.

The Ferdinand was never open topped.

Ferdinands didn't have open tops; they are only Elefants without the bow machine gun and Zimmerit. Nothing different otherwise.

............. Did I say that ?




...................... I give up !




Mitch v MG

From what I hear about it, I have not received mine from the flying mule yet, it sounds like it wouldn't be too difficult of a conversion to make this Elefant into a Ferdinand if you were so inclined (especially if these ever see action grade). The lower hull I've been told is all plastic, leaving the removal of the hull mg and zimmerit there a simple task, and all that would remain as far as I can think off the top of my head is grinding the zimmerit off the metal superstructure. Who knows, i might end up taking this one on

-Kevin

............. Did I say that ?

Ummm, well yeah... you did as a matter of fact. Never mind that you conveniently edited it out Mitch....

Here's the complete text of what you originally posted... feel free to edit this too...lol

MG-42 wrote: [+] > Well ,.. Eastern Front then , damn it . * * ... Sheesh ! *

............ I got the Elefants confused w/ the Ferdinands , which were somewhat similar ,.. only the Ferdinands were open top. ... I think the Elefant was an improvement over it's predecessor then , and why it was made into a closed armored top , to keep the Russians from throwing Molotovs and grenades in there , into the fighting compartment.

............... I really hate you guys sometimes ! * ... Thanks for helping me look like a goofball ! *

[+] > Too many are quick to point out a blunder then by so few to say ,.. "Mitch , it's alright". "It's Ok to have a brain fart now & again".



Mitch v MG

A white-washed Elefant would be rather nice.

[+] > Thanks everybody , + PanzerArm & Herr Kommandant !

* "I still can't get over the overall size of the thing though". ... It's a really big tank ! * +

... it's huge ! *

........ bigger than the Kingtiger & Jagdtiger itself ! *


* "I had just taken it out of the box yesterday to check it out".

........... I really like the cat too , "believe it or not". ... I got it propped on the drivers side , curled up , lounging , on one of the radiator ducts , to keep warm.

->>>-------> "Did you know that there are only 2 left in the world today".

GooglyDoogly wrote: There were no Elefants in that battle. Only Ferdinands.

->>>-------> Oh , and btw ,..
... The Elefant tank did participate @ the Battle of the Kursk Salient ! ! !


Mitch v MG

Yep, Kubinka has a Ferdinand and Aberdeen has an Elefant. I'd say two survivors is not a bad percentage for the total production of 91 (or maybe it was 90, I'm not sure) actually being made. Tiger Is on the other hand, only six have survived as far as I know, out of a production of 1400+, which is a far worse percentage.

Whitewashed would be cool.
Didn't an elefant unit operate in Poland during later 1944?

[+] > Yes ! ... "I believe Pz.Abt.653 was.


........... Btw ,.. The Elefant was an armaments failure decided by the German High Command ! ... "but used desperately anyway , of course".



Mitch v MG

[+] > .......... & The Elefant was also known as the Ferdinand , after it's designer , Herr Dr. Ferdinand Porsche . *



Mitch v MG

MG-42 wrote:

GooglyDoogly wrote: There were no Elefants in that battle. Only Ferdinands.

->>>-------> Oh , and btw ,..
... The Elefant tank did participate @ the Battle of the Kursk Salient ! ! !


Mitch v MG

Here we go again... Considering that the Elefant (essentially a modified Ferdinand) didn't even come into existence until October/November of 1943, and the name change to "Elefant" didn't even become official by Hitler's order until May of 1944, it could not possibly have been used at the battle of Kursk, which took place in July and August of 1943. Possibly the "interchangeability" of the names is causing you some confusion, but here is some basic information that may help clarify it for you. The information comes from Wikipedia, but can be found elswhere as well....

"In September 1943 all surviving Ferdinands were recalled to be modified based on battle experience gained in the Battle of Kursk. During October and November 1943 forty-eight of the fifty surviving vehicles were modified by addition of a ball-mounted MG 34 in the hull front (to improve anti-infantry ability), a commander's cupola (modified from the standard StuG III cupola) for improved vision and the application of Zimmerit paste. This and other minor armor changes increased the weight from 65 to 70 t. These improved vehicles were then unofficially called Elefant, and this became the official name by Hitler's orders of May 1, 1944.

Hope this helps to clear up any doubts about whether the Elefant fought at Kursk.

* LoL ! ! ! ... Yeah , right ,.. "here we go again".


............ I love this Fest !



A total of 90 Elefants were available, and all of them were used by the 9th Army to help its divisions crack through the defensive lines on the north face of the Kursk salient. Despite the Soviet accounts which have Elefants participating in practically every battle on the north and south faces, Elefants were used only by the 9th Army, and only on the north face (primarily in the German assault on the town of Ponyri). Most of them were lost in the first few days of the fighting.


Mitch v MG

If it's not too much trouble would you mind quoting a source for that information..?? BTW, I would never use an internet site (including Wikipedia) as a sole source for information on a subject as complex as the development and history of German combat vehicles. I have an excellent two Volume set in my library on the Ferdinand/Elefant by AJ Press, around 200 pages of detailed information on the history and development, specs, line drawings, technical illustrations, and actual wartime photos on the Ferdinand/Elefant tank destroyers, with Steven Zaloga (one of the best in the business) as a contributing editor, I would highly recommend these two volumes to anyone who wants comprehensive info on this vehicle series.

[+] > Thanks Scott ; but "you said so yourself ".

ostketten wrote: The information comes from Wikipedia , but can be found elsewhere as well.......

Here is where I got my info from. Scroll down about 1/2 way , I think.

http://www.uni.edu/~licari/citadel.htm



Mitch v MG

Here is where I got my info from.

This guy wrote an "essay" that appears to be all of about 2 pages worth of information regarding what he views as "Myths of Citadel" and includes a few lines of text that make references to the "Elefant" having participated in the battle. This is pretty thin as a resource on the history and development of the Ferdinand/Elefant. It is also worth mentioning that at the end of this guys essay, he added the following notation: "Some parts of this essay (maybe even all of it) may be at odds with what you have read or heard about the battle of Kursk. You really should go over to Missing Lynx and tell those guys about your "Elefants" at Kursk.... they'll be happy to educate you.... or better yet just search their forum before you do... SIGH...

These guys do some serious research on the history and development of German AFV's: http://missing-lynx.com/index.htm Check it out, you might learn something. Here's another resource that may be of interest to anyone who wants a clearer understanding of the designations "Ferdinand" and "Elefant"... http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tiger-variations.htm

Alright you two that's enough, or so help me I'll turn this thread around!

I believe there is a misunderstanding going on here. Mitch, the elefant and ferdinand, at first glimpse, do appear to be the same, but, as ostketten described, they modified the initial run of ferdinand after their shortcomings at Kursk, and subsequently re-named them the elefant. That is a very simple version of course, but I think ost already covered it more in detail.

Mitch, to anyone but the most knowledgeable on German armor, if you use the names elefant and ferdinand interchangeably, I'm sure their really won't be any confusion, they look the same, had the same main gun, and sucked equally

I wasn't going to get involved, but someone had to try and get this thread back on track.

-Kevin