Panzer IV at the Bulge?

metalwar · Post by **metalwar** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:30 am

I was wondering if anyone knew if the German's used any ofthe Panzer IV's with the short barrels at the Battle of the Bulge?

corpbob · Post by **corpbob** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:59 am

I don't have positive knowledge, but since the German forces were carefully gathered from among the best panzer forces available that could be reconstituted or pulled off the eastern front, I really doubt that any "short" Mark IVs would have been used.

ltcbj · Post by **ltcbj** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:19 am

It is my impression that by early 1943 the early, short barreled, L/24, PzIVs had either been all destroyed in battle or upgraded to L/43 or L/48 status. The PzIII-N carried the L/24 75mm gun, however, and was still in service in late 1944. It had taken up the combat support tank role and the PzIV was the main tank in the German inventory.

Of course there may have been the random, forgotten, lost in combat returned from the dead "E" or "F1" still trotting around but I would really doubt it. What kind of idiot wouldn't have destroyed it himself if only to get into a more combat worthy vehicle?

Post by **aferguson** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:28 pm

nope.....they were all either destroyed by then or converted to something else.

luftpanzer · Post by **luftpanzer** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:06 pm

Yep, By that time the short barrels where all gone. I do belive that the short barrels where mainely for infantry support and not tank vs tank rolls. Even thoe they where used in tank vs tank .

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:57 pm

aferguson wrote:nope.....they were all either destroyed by then or converted to something else.

Yup, the Germans where real good at coveting old equipment, especially many of the old me-109

Jagdplastic · Post by **Jagdplastic** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 6:07 pm

In the book "The Panzers and the Battle of Normandy" there is a series of pictures of a Panzer IVC with the short 75mm gun dated as being spring of 1944. The author states that the 21st Panzer Division had several of obsolete types of tanks in its inventory.

ltcbj · Post by **ltcbj** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 6:26 pm

Actually by late 1942 a hollow charge shell was available for the L/24 cannon. It was still a low velocity gun but the hollow charge gave it some anti-tank effectiveness. Similar to a modern RPG.

Panzer_M · Post by **Panzer_M** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:05 pm

yes there were still the rare Kurz in 1944/early 45. Mostly Staff/Command vehicles and not line models.

for the L24's other service.
PzKw III ausf N served until the end of the war, and wer employed post war by Norway and Holland(in Holland for mine-clearing), The Sdkfz. 250/8 and 251/9 also saw action until May 45.

The HC round gave the L24, a punch that could deal with alot of medium armor at the time..plus it was still good for chucking HE

Small Scale Military Headquarters

Panzer IV at the Bulge?

Panzer IV at the Bulge?

short of shorts

Panzer IV at Battle of the Bulge

PzIv- L/24