Review of FOV 1/72 Grant
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Posts
Hello All,
Thank you for all your posts. I agree with Oz, that theres absolutely no need to choose sides or defend any one vendor. We thought that when the problem was made public instead of handled privately, that we should step forward and take responsibility. Could it happen again. Absolutely! That's the nature of the business, especially when customers are sending you daily messages asking where there item is! We try to do the right thing and ship everything out as quickly as possible and had we known there was a problem with the way in which the vehicle was strapped to the package, then we obviously wouldnt have sent it out.
The point is that after we accepted responsibility and settled matters with the buyer, people on the other forum felt its wasnt enough and started to demand more of an explanation. That's when everything got out of hand. If you're a moderator, then moderate, and take down posts that are obivously aimed at harming another business. This wasnt done and thats when we got upset.
I also just want to point out one other thing. Just because we wear the title vendor doesnt mean that we have feelings too. Perhaps we're thin skinned, but I dont appreciate it when someone knocks us, especially in a public manner, when we're doing everything in our power to make them happy. Do we screw up occassionally? Absolutely. But there's no reason to pour salt into an open wound and make someone respond in kind.
Cordially,
Lightning2000
Thank you for all your posts. I agree with Oz, that theres absolutely no need to choose sides or defend any one vendor. We thought that when the problem was made public instead of handled privately, that we should step forward and take responsibility. Could it happen again. Absolutely! That's the nature of the business, especially when customers are sending you daily messages asking where there item is! We try to do the right thing and ship everything out as quickly as possible and had we known there was a problem with the way in which the vehicle was strapped to the package, then we obviously wouldnt have sent it out.
The point is that after we accepted responsibility and settled matters with the buyer, people on the other forum felt its wasnt enough and started to demand more of an explanation. That's when everything got out of hand. If you're a moderator, then moderate, and take down posts that are obivously aimed at harming another business. This wasnt done and thats when we got upset.
I also just want to point out one other thing. Just because we wear the title vendor doesnt mean that we have feelings too. Perhaps we're thin skinned, but I dont appreciate it when someone knocks us, especially in a public manner, when we're doing everything in our power to make them happy. Do we screw up occassionally? Absolutely. But there's no reason to pour salt into an open wound and make someone respond in kind.
Cordially,
Lightning2000
Create Your Own Battlefield in Miniature or Build Your Own Private War Museum...The Choice is Yours at The Motor Pool!
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missed opportunity
OZ....
Hey. PWade/Philip never mentioned Marc or the MotorPool in his original posts. He only mentioned Marc (on the other forum) when he noted that the situation was handled to his satisfaction.
Personally I think it is as much the retailer's responsibility to not send broken/faulty merchandise as it is the manufacturer's to have not shipped it in the first place.
This was neither ignorance nor malicious but a wholly legitimate posting topic, presented in a fair and non-culpable fashion. There was no blaming, at least initially. Why should the buyer have to contact the retailer before he put up his post? He may have been (legitimately) disappointed in the retailer sending a broken item but his initial beef was with the manufacturer to make it good.
If, instead of outing himself and then defending what he did by demeaning the buyer, Lightning had instead said, "hey, I sold it, I'm sorry, while it's not really my responsibility I'll send you a new tank. It'll be in the mail in the morning, no charge."
Then what do you think would have happened? He has as much as said this thing cost him about six dollars ($6.00) wholesale (It retailed at $11.00, he says he makes five.)
Instead of two pages of contentious postings we would have two pages of high praise for the Motorpool and a bunch of new customers. All that good publicity focussed on the very demographic (active FoV collectors) he wants to reach, for six bucks!! What a missed opportunity.
Hey. PWade/Philip never mentioned Marc or the MotorPool in his original posts. He only mentioned Marc (on the other forum) when he noted that the situation was handled to his satisfaction.
Personally I think it is as much the retailer's responsibility to not send broken/faulty merchandise as it is the manufacturer's to have not shipped it in the first place.
This was neither ignorance nor malicious but a wholly legitimate posting topic, presented in a fair and non-culpable fashion. There was no blaming, at least initially. Why should the buyer have to contact the retailer before he put up his post? He may have been (legitimately) disappointed in the retailer sending a broken item but his initial beef was with the manufacturer to make it good.
If, instead of outing himself and then defending what he did by demeaning the buyer, Lightning had instead said, "hey, I sold it, I'm sorry, while it's not really my responsibility I'll send you a new tank. It'll be in the mail in the morning, no charge."
Then what do you think would have happened? He has as much as said this thing cost him about six dollars ($6.00) wholesale (It retailed at $11.00, he says he makes five.)
Instead of two pages of contentious postings we would have two pages of high praise for the Motorpool and a bunch of new customers. All that good publicity focussed on the very demographic (active FoV collectors) he wants to reach, for six bucks!! What a missed opportunity.
"The only constant is change. Often short change. Learn to accept.": Noah Vaile www.dinosaur-toys-collectors-guide.com
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Itcbj
Hi Itcbj,
Good post but you're missing a couple of things. If this was a line-item problem, where the same problem occurred throughout the run, and we had shipped out 100 Grants, did you really expect any hobby vendor to ship out another 100 Grants at their expense and assume the cost of return shipping too? Sure, Dell and Apple are eating the expense of the Sony laptop battery fiasco but we're not a Dell or an Apple or Sony since they have far more resources to draw upon.
Again, the simplest course of action would have been to contact us first privately. Yes, we could easily send out a replacement (provided the replacement did not suffer from the same problem) and all would have been forgiven. I also think that the customer was comparing how one manufacturer handled a similar problem and another handled the same problem but got different results. Frankly that's not the issue. We have a policy in place, just like every other vendor, that addresses returns yet this is overlooked when the need arises. The problem became an issue for some when we were held up to a different standard than the host.
Lightning2000
Good post but you're missing a couple of things. If this was a line-item problem, where the same problem occurred throughout the run, and we had shipped out 100 Grants, did you really expect any hobby vendor to ship out another 100 Grants at their expense and assume the cost of return shipping too? Sure, Dell and Apple are eating the expense of the Sony laptop battery fiasco but we're not a Dell or an Apple or Sony since they have far more resources to draw upon.
Again, the simplest course of action would have been to contact us first privately. Yes, we could easily send out a replacement (provided the replacement did not suffer from the same problem) and all would have been forgiven. I also think that the customer was comparing how one manufacturer handled a similar problem and another handled the same problem but got different results. Frankly that's not the issue. We have a policy in place, just like every other vendor, that addresses returns yet this is overlooked when the need arises. The problem became an issue for some when we were held up to a different standard than the host.
Lightning2000
Create Your Own Battlefield in Miniature or Build Your Own Private War Museum...The Choice is Yours at The Motor Pool!
I'm going to pretty much agree with Oz about 110%. Wish I had that ability to sum up thoughts and observations in a clear concise manner like that.
As far as the debate goes I have nothing much to contribute except that I can understand Lightning's POV. As most of us know these forums (and others) are a prime resource for us consumers to find good places to buy stuff (ie. recommendations). So I can see why he want to defend his buisness. Though I still take no sides here.
Al least it was nice getting some insite to how somethings work in the online store area
Peace out
-H
As far as the debate goes I have nothing much to contribute except that I can understand Lightning's POV. As most of us know these forums (and others) are a prime resource for us consumers to find good places to buy stuff (ie. recommendations). So I can see why he want to defend his buisness. Though I still take no sides here.
Al least it was nice getting some insite to how somethings work in the online store area
Peace out
-H
Re: missed opportunity
Hi Itcbj, yes I know pwade/Phillip didn't mention The Motor Pool in his initial comments which is why I said it was his later post (#8 in fact). Which was still before lightening2000 (Marc) posted his comments.ltcbj wrote:OZ....
Hey. PWade/Philip never mentioned Marc or the MotorPool in his original posts. He only mentioned Marc (on the other forum) when he noted that the situation was handled to his satisfaction.
Personally I think it is as much the retailer's responsibility to not send broken/faulty merchandise as it is the manufacturer's to have not shipped it in the first place.
This was neither ignorance nor malicious but a wholly legitimate posting topic, presented in a fair and non-culpable fashion. There was no blaming, at least initially. Why should the buyer have to contact the retailer before he put up his post? He may have been (legitimately) disappointed in the retailer sending a broken item but his initial beef was with the manufacturer to make it good.
If, instead of outing himself and then defending what he did by demeaning the buyer, Lightning had instead said, "hey, I sold it, I'm sorry, while it's not really my responsibility I'll send you a new tank. It'll be in the mail in the morning, no charge."
Then what do you think would have happened? He has as much as said this thing cost him about six dollars ($6.00) wholesale (It retailed at $11.00, he says he makes five.)
Instead of two pages of contentious postings we would have two pages of high praise for the Motorpool and a bunch of new customers. All that good publicity focussed on the very demographic (active FoV collectors) he wants to reach, for six bucks!! What a missed opportunity.
I say again that I'm not taking sides in this matter as I buy most of my stuff in Australia anyway. I just don't like to see individuals and companies dragged thru the mud over such a trivial matter.
In hindsight I feel Phillip would agree that he should have resolved the situation with The Motor Pool prior to starting the thread. I noted some of the advice he received from other members was ill advised and may have confused him further rather than solved the issue - as is often the case with forums.
When you buy from a online company it is the responsibility of the buyer to find out their policies before purchasing the goods.
It makes no difference what you or other members think about who pays for the return freight as the law has already determined that the customer pays.
It is up to the vendor to decide if they want to go beyond those freight and return guidelines, no one elses.
If you don't agree with a sellers guidelines the best solution is to simply buy from someone else rather than arguing about something they are unlikely to change. However you should note that the VAST majority of online sellers require the buyer to pay for return freight.
Just imagine how I feel when I receive something from overseas that's been damaged in transit because it is rare that the return freight is worth the trouble. I just do some small repairs, as I did on some model tanks I recently bought from Harry W. It's nobodys fault or no big deal, that's just how it is sometimes.
I did suggest to Marc that he may have over-reacted in this matter and I feel there is no need for any legal action. Not that he has said he is intending any.
However I do feel that any threads on this matter on the other forum that may affect sales of The Motor Pool should be deleted as the matter has been resolved to the satisfaction to the vendor and the buyer.
Case closed, let's move on.
O.K. guys. Let me clear something up, that has been said, but overlooked again and again. I DID NOT MENTION THE VENDOR'S NAME! NO ONE SENT ME A PRIVATE MESSAGE ASKING WHO THE VENDOR WAS. The only person I told that the vendor was The Motor Pool, was a guy on The Model Hangar who had the same problem, and I sent him a PM. The Motor Pool "outed" themselves. I first contacted Panache Place. They told me to contact The Motor Pool, which I did. I still do not think that I "bashed" the Motor Pool, but they did. I have worked it out that it will be no cost to the Motor Pool. Marc is going to put me a new Grant in with my next order. I will pay to return the tank, and I will pay the shipping for the new order. I do not think it is any problem with posting a disappointment with a product, and voicing a few general concerns, as long as you don't mention the vendor. This has been cleared up, but let me repeat. I DID NOT MENTION THE VENDOR'S NAME, AND HAD NO PLAN TO DO SO! I have "smoked the peace pipe" with The Motor Pool. I love both the forums that I participate in. I'm really a nice guy, until my 7th grader's friends try to take down one of my tanks and play with it! By the way did I mention that I DID NOT MENTION THE VENDDOR'S NAME? Thanks for all the back and forth. So, let's shake hands and come out collecting.
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The problem I have is that this whole thing has gone as sour as it has. Personally I think if the customer had been contacted and the problem rectified that the customer should have posted the fact and that should have been the end of it. Maybe a few more comments would have been passed but then it would have gone away quietly. How many times have we seen a thread get hijacked after about 20 posts and it ends up 180 degrees from the original subject. I suggest that this would have happened if the natural course of things had been allowed to take place. The only thing I can see that this has created is anymosity and fueled something that should have been allowed to die. Whether Mark is right or wrong is one thing but what matters the most is that over 1,000 forum memebers who are about to be displaced over this. This is the part that really has my blood boiling, we are the colateral damage. I would hope that Mark will contact Martin again and resolve this situation with calm cool heads because this doesn't just involve them. Do it for the kids. Show everyone that you can be men that can talk sensibly and can resolve a problem. If not, everyone will think you guys are really politicians that can't solve dick all, only go to war.
Stop thinking of just yourselves and do the right thing, I suggest this approach will prove beneficial for all concerned.
Stop thinking of just yourselves and do the right thing, I suggest this approach will prove beneficial for all concerned.
http://www.hobbymastercollector.com/
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"Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter."
- Winston Churchill
Phillip, I'm not saying you're to blame in anyway for this matter.Philip wrote:O.K. guys. Let me clear something up, that has been said, but overlooked again and again. I DID NOT MENTION THE VENDOR'S NAME! NO ONE SENT ME A PRIVATE MESSAGE ASKING WHO THE VENDOR WAS. The only person I told that the vendor was The Motor Pool, was a guy on The Model Hangar who had the same problem, and I sent him a PM. The Motor Pool "outed" themselves. I first contacted Panache Place. They told me to contact The Motor Pool, which I did. I still do not think that I "bashed" the Motor Pool, but they did. I have worked it out that it will be no cost to the Motor Pool. Marc is going to put me a new Grant in with my next order. I will pay to return the tank, and I will pay the shipping for the new order. I do not think it is any problem with posting a disappointment with a product, and voicing a few general concerns, as long as you don't mention the vendor. This has been cleared up, but let me repeat. I DID NOT MENTION THE VENDOR'S NAME, AND HAD NO PLAN TO DO SO! I have "smoked the peace pipe" with The Motor Pool. I love both the forums that I participate in. I'm really a nice guy, until my 7th grader's friends try to take down one of my tanks and play with it! By the way did I mention that I DID NOT MENTION THE VENDDOR'S NAME? Thanks for all the back and forth. So, let's shake hands and come out collecting.
However to cover my remarks I should point out that I was correct in saying you did name The Motor Pool in your post # 8, and Marc didn't respond to the thread until post #16.
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I have purchased from both vendors in the past and feel they both have done a great deal for the hobby we enjoy so much. Therefore, I feel it necessary to comment. I'm not sure where there would be any grounds for anyone to be upset with the other. The Model Hangar is very clearly sponsored by the Flying Mule. When individual users sign up for an account, they are aware of this and aware that they are responsible for their own comments.
In a free society, we all have to compete in the marketplace of ideas, in such a case, any person or vendor is able to create a forum of their choosing, to run it as they see fit. There's nothing stopping any other vendor from creating their own forum and setting their own rules. Again, I've bought from both vendors and have no stake or interest in seeing one or the other prevail, however I don't see where its anyone else's business to try and dictate how another's forum is run.
I think all this talk about lawsuits needs to go away. Forum goers are in this for a hobby, to have fun, not to fight. This hobby is about escapism, and we have enough strife in the real world. If other retailers disagree with what is said in another forum about their business, they should have an opportunity to respond in that forum...they should also consider building their own forum, building a community of posters and competing in the marketplace of ideas.
Lastly, I leave this piece of advice, don't punish the hobbyists and forum members as there will be no victors from closing down a site everyone loves and enjoys.
In a free society, we all have to compete in the marketplace of ideas, in such a case, any person or vendor is able to create a forum of their choosing, to run it as they see fit. There's nothing stopping any other vendor from creating their own forum and setting their own rules. Again, I've bought from both vendors and have no stake or interest in seeing one or the other prevail, however I don't see where its anyone else's business to try and dictate how another's forum is run.
I think all this talk about lawsuits needs to go away. Forum goers are in this for a hobby, to have fun, not to fight. This hobby is about escapism, and we have enough strife in the real world. If other retailers disagree with what is said in another forum about their business, they should have an opportunity to respond in that forum...they should also consider building their own forum, building a community of posters and competing in the marketplace of ideas.
Lastly, I leave this piece of advice, don't punish the hobbyists and forum members as there will be no victors from closing down a site everyone loves and enjoys.
"I like a man who grins when he fights" - Winston Churchill
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Forum
Hi,
Again, all very good comments and no, I'm not upset with you Philip. You can keep the first Grant tank and I'll put another one in today's mail so you wont have to wait until the Fuzzy Stuka arrives. Again, I cant open the box due to the way its packed so if there's a problem with the tank on the reverse side, PLEASE let me know privately.
I will also call Martin today, provided he's in, and ask that he continue to run the Model Hangar forum. I actually like it, and oftentimes glean some useful information. For instance, did you know that there are contraptions called airplanes flying over our heads and some even shoot at one another!
Obviously, its up to him to decide what to do. Again my only proviso is that the members not use the forum to destroy a competitor and if posts should "accidentally" appear, they be taken down in a timely fashion. I'm sure you'd agree that this is only fair.
Lightning2000
Again, all very good comments and no, I'm not upset with you Philip. You can keep the first Grant tank and I'll put another one in today's mail so you wont have to wait until the Fuzzy Stuka arrives. Again, I cant open the box due to the way its packed so if there's a problem with the tank on the reverse side, PLEASE let me know privately.
I will also call Martin today, provided he's in, and ask that he continue to run the Model Hangar forum. I actually like it, and oftentimes glean some useful information. For instance, did you know that there are contraptions called airplanes flying over our heads and some even shoot at one another!
Obviously, its up to him to decide what to do. Again my only proviso is that the members not use the forum to destroy a competitor and if posts should "accidentally" appear, they be taken down in a timely fashion. I'm sure you'd agree that this is only fair.
Lightning2000
Create Your Own Battlefield in Miniature or Build Your Own Private War Museum...The Choice is Yours at The Motor Pool!
Re: Forum
I think you protest too much Mr. Lightning.lightning2000 wrote:Hi,
.....Again my only proviso is that the members not use the forum to destroy a competitor and if posts should "accidentally" appear, they be taken down in a timely fashion. I'm sure you'd agree that this is only fair.
Lightning2000
I've been a member of the forum since it first started and I can't remember any post directed against your company or any member that has regulary posted negative comments bent on your destruction.
In fact I have sometimes advised other members on both forums (including the UK forum) that certain items were available on your website.
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Rolling right along to inevitable demise
It was and remains the manufacturers' responsibility to send out product in good and marketable shape. While a vendor has the certain responsibility to make sure what he sells is marketable as well he relies on the manufacturer to provide proper product. It sounds like this particular Grant (and very possibly, in fact, all Grants) have been sent out to retailers in a damaged fashion. I have no idea, but it is the manufacturer who is ultimately responsible and at fault. I applaud The MotorPool for their excellent customer relations act in sending the new model out forthwith but I am appalled at FoV for their failure/inability to stand behind their product.
Lightning (and his employees) should not have to check every item they send out and I suppose fatigue alone could account for missing some errors. (I have received a Dragon Armor 60016 with a broken off road wheel, in an unopened factory carton.) I also recognize that too careful a perusal might result in entire shipments being returned as unmarketable and having nothing at all to sell. With quality control as it appears to be this is not too many standard deviations away from possibility.
It appears that those of us who buy online really have to rely on quality retailers to protect us from careless manufacturers.
Lightning (and his employees) should not have to check every item they send out and I suppose fatigue alone could account for missing some errors. (I have received a Dragon Armor 60016 with a broken off road wheel, in an unopened factory carton.) I also recognize that too careful a perusal might result in entire shipments being returned as unmarketable and having nothing at all to sell. With quality control as it appears to be this is not too many standard deviations away from possibility.
It appears that those of us who buy online really have to rely on quality retailers to protect us from careless manufacturers.
"The only constant is change. Often short change. Learn to accept.": Noah Vaile www.dinosaur-toys-collectors-guide.com
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grant
Guys, please stop. The title of this thread says review of FOV Grant and it is actually not that at all. There is dirty laundry from another board that we don't need aired here, plus some emotions and opinions that have combined for a very negative thread. Nobody who sells products owns or runs this board (even though the occassional Etailer may like to try) so let's leave all that competitive wrangling elsewhere.
I think everyone has had a chance to say their part, some of you more than once.
I think everyone has had a chance to say their part, some of you more than once.
Sorry, i picked up on this one late. With all that's being going on the last two weeks on here and with receiving dozens of pm's a day, i'm a bit put off right now. The topic didn't lead me to believe it was anything more than a discussion about the FOV Grant. Silly me.
I saw Harry's duplicate post that he put in the off topic forum and deleted it immediately. Harry, i was extremely disppointed that you made a post like that. Name calling and insults are not what i would have expected from you.
Had i notice the same post in this thread i would have deleted it too. You mentioned it was here but when i didn't see it i assumed Teamski or P-51 had deleted it......as they well should have.
NAME CALLING AND INSULTS ARE NEVER, EVER, EVER ACCEPTABLE ON THIS FORUM. CAPICHE?
If you have a problem with someone then settle it by email or pm or phone but NEVER on here. People come here to relax and talk about their hobby and toys, not to see adults acting like fools throwing mud at each other.
Even 12 year old Catman is put off by all this nonsense.
Lightning, you have at least handled yourself with grace. That said, you need to accept the fact that people are going to say bad things about your company from time to time....i'm afraid that's part of business. I know it's your baby and it hurts but that's a fact you are going to have to face. Not every customer is going to be a satisfied one. It may be your fault, it may be theirs, it may be nobody's but regardless it's going to happen. Face it.
This forum is not going to be censored to the point that people cannot express their grievances, concerns, opinions or post bad experiences when dealing with a vendor. Period. As long as they do so in an non-inflammatory and mature fashion they will be allowed to speak.
That said, i always give the vendor in question a chance for a response so people can read both sides of the story and make up their own minds on it.
I came in late on this thread and it's gone waaaay further than i would normally have let it had i picked up on it sooner.
So this is what's going to happen now. Everyone is going to take a deep breath and back away. This thread, as you can see, is locked, closed, done. I don't want to see any more discussion of this. None.
Harry, you are on notice.......no more inflammatory posts.
Lightning, relax. People have a right to express grievances.....if you can't deal with it than maybe you shouldn't be in business. Expecting (demanding) censorship on community forums is not going to happen.
FIN
I saw Harry's duplicate post that he put in the off topic forum and deleted it immediately. Harry, i was extremely disppointed that you made a post like that. Name calling and insults are not what i would have expected from you.
Had i notice the same post in this thread i would have deleted it too. You mentioned it was here but when i didn't see it i assumed Teamski or P-51 had deleted it......as they well should have.
NAME CALLING AND INSULTS ARE NEVER, EVER, EVER ACCEPTABLE ON THIS FORUM. CAPICHE?
If you have a problem with someone then settle it by email or pm or phone but NEVER on here. People come here to relax and talk about their hobby and toys, not to see adults acting like fools throwing mud at each other.
Even 12 year old Catman is put off by all this nonsense.
Lightning, you have at least handled yourself with grace. That said, you need to accept the fact that people are going to say bad things about your company from time to time....i'm afraid that's part of business. I know it's your baby and it hurts but that's a fact you are going to have to face. Not every customer is going to be a satisfied one. It may be your fault, it may be theirs, it may be nobody's but regardless it's going to happen. Face it.
This forum is not going to be censored to the point that people cannot express their grievances, concerns, opinions or post bad experiences when dealing with a vendor. Period. As long as they do so in an non-inflammatory and mature fashion they will be allowed to speak.
That said, i always give the vendor in question a chance for a response so people can read both sides of the story and make up their own minds on it.
I came in late on this thread and it's gone waaaay further than i would normally have let it had i picked up on it sooner.
So this is what's going to happen now. Everyone is going to take a deep breath and back away. This thread, as you can see, is locked, closed, done. I don't want to see any more discussion of this. None.
Harry, you are on notice.......no more inflammatory posts.
Lightning, relax. People have a right to express grievances.....if you can't deal with it than maybe you shouldn't be in business. Expecting (demanding) censorship on community forums is not going to happen.
FIN
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