Anyone seen the early German camo scheme? For reference

[metalwar]

Has anyoneseen the camo scheme used in the early years of the war of Dunkelgrau and signalbraun together? I have been trying to find a photo or something to use as reference on a Panzer III in Greece.

[flpickupman]

There's an example about halfway down on the Armored Car.

http://www.panzerbaer.de/colours/wh_camo-a.htm

This was the only visual reference I was able to locate. Hope it helps.

[Wieslaw]

Metalwar,

I'm sure, that at least since the September Campaign in Poland (1939) the German tanks and armored vehicles were in tank grey only, without any brown or other stains. So, in Greece they should be gray, too.

Wieslaw

[Panzer_M]

Greece 41 saw some use of camo on german AFV, I think in the region the Italians started the process of camo'd vehicles and AFVs and the germans picked it up

[GooglyDoogly]

Actually, German tanks during the Polish, low countries, and the battle of France campaigns were painted in dark grey/dark brown camo. Only after the battle of France ended did the order of painting armored in dark grey only to save paint were issued.

[Wieslaw]

Actually, German tanks during the Polish, low countries, and the battle of France campaigns were painted in dark grey/dark brown camo. Only after the battle of France ended did the order of painting armored in dark grey only to save paint were issued.

If so, it would be a revolution in my knowledge! All illustrated sources I have got show the German vehicles gray!

Of course, I didn't see it personally...

Wieslaw

[aferguson]

my understanding has always been that by september '39 all german armour had been repainted in panzer grey only. There may have been some trucks, guns etc that still had the old grey/brown/green camo but armour was all panzer grey.

If there is some new info i'd be very interested to read about it.

As for Greece, by then the Germans were adopting local camouflage paint mods, which carried on into North Africa, so it is quite possible that there were tanks sporting grey and brown camo. Most likely the brown would have been one of the Italian brown paint colours, borrowed by the Germans.

[GooglyDoogly]

http://www.panzertracts.com/PZfacts.htm

I was looking for ideas too for repaints of a Pz III, when I came across that. Jentz and Doyle are two of the most respected historians when it comes to German armour/vehicles of WWII.

[aferguson]

even after all this time there are new revelations....interesting stuff.

[dfoos]

Not the same as mentioned above but grey with simple camo as early as Kursk.

[Wieslaw]

Very interesting informations, which change my picture of the September Campaign (of course only it's visual aspect)! I verified all (?) my books and brochures which could contain the photos from 1939. The recognizing of the German armored vehicles from that time is easy: the national markings in the form of the simple "greek" white cross were used not earlier and not later. I found only one photo* with SdKfz. 232 (6x4) with distinct patches (I saw that photo earlier and wondered about it, because I "knew" it should be gray only!). On some other ones, you could interprete the dusty patches as good as the partly washed off camouflage as as the weathering. The vehicles on other photos looked like only gray painted. The base color was grey and the brown patches were painted over it, so I suppose they could be washed off during use of the vehicles. On the other hand, that was the beginnig of war and the Germans had long months to prepare and paint accurate their tanks and cars... A lot of questions, few answers...

Wieslaw

____
*the second one I found later in the Internet:
http://usuarios.lycos.es/lotgame/imagenes/panzer41.jpg

[KAMIKAZE]

If any of you guys have the Squadron/Signal Panzer colors (red book) it show the camouflage you speak of as a pre-war pattern. It says late in 1939 in order to save paint supplies, the order was given to paint all vehicles dark grey. It is probable that this order was not able to be completely carried out before the invasion of Poland. After the Polish campaign ended, the German army spent the winter of 1939/1940 repairing equipment and replacing obsolete tanks so by the invasion of France I have to think that almost all tanks were the new standard dark grey color.

Mark

[Wieslaw]

If any of you guys have the Squadron/Signal Panzer colors (red book) it show the camouflage you speak of as a pre-war pattern. It says late in 1939 in order to save paint supplies, the order was given to paint all vehicles dark grey. Mark

So is it in all Polish books I have got! All illustrations and paint schemes (but not all photos) show the German equipment gray only. That's why the new informations were a big surprise for me...

[GooglyDoogly]

Actually, those books that show only dark gray camo for German vehicles early in the war have been largely debunked now, especially the Panzer Colors books.

It's kinda like how for many years, people thought that Michael Wittmann's famous S02 Tiger (not really his) was dark grey with white camo. It turns out it's dark yellow with red-brown and green camo applied, and then white-washed.

The link I gave showed how those books were quite incorrect. So far, noone has contradicted Jentz or Doyle, and in the world of military modelling, when authors make such a claim, especially about WWII German armor, they better prove it. And those two authors had.

The Panzer Color series was nice, but you can't really depend on them for accurate references.

[KAMIKAZE]

There is not really any right or wrong concerning camouflage patterns guys. Most panzer crews took great liberty in painting their tanks sometimes even with captured supplies. Furthermore, the roads were usually dirt and the tanks got such a heavy coat of dust that it would almost completely obscure the paint anyway. Despite being only somewhat accurate, the book I spoke of clearly shows the use of Reichswehr colors in 3-color sprayed "cloud effect" at a Nazi rally in 1934 (pg.10) Also page 33 shows the earth brown and grey as well as the 3 color. I have other books with original photograghs from Germany that confirm these colors. Later paint was issured to give feild commanders the greatest latitude to blend their equipment into the local conditions. All in all the experts can only guess at what a specific vehicle looked like unless they can veiw the vehicle in original colors. There are a few left in original colors but not many.

Mark

[GooglyDoogly]

Hehehe, the Germans back then were some of the most fickle when it comes to camo colors. Heck, they even used standardized camo patterns on their heavy tanks even late into the war (ambush camo).

That's why the search for the proper camo color/pattern is so important to many hardcore modelers. It's true you can't trust war-time photos for obvious reasons, but there are documents and RAL color charts that survives to this day that tells you exactly what color they did use.

And if you read the explanation in the link I gave, yes, that 3-color pattern was right in 1934. The dark gray-dark brown/green pattern wasn't standardized until 1937. So by the beginning of the war, that 3-color scheme is long gone.

And I don't think there's documented proof that shows that the Germans ever used captured Allied paints to camo their vehicles. Unless its for the specific purpose of making their vehicles look like allied vehicles (like those Panthers made to look like M-10s in the Bulge) I know there's a famous Tiger color pic in Tunisia that seem to show the color to be US olive drab...but by this time, the Germans are in retreat...I doubt they'd be spending time capturing US paints and repainting their whole tanks olive drab...

Just think, even when they are losing in all fronts, the Germans are still fussing over the looks of their tanks, while their enemies are more sensible and just stayed with one color (ie: US olive drab). Camo color and pattern are THAT important to them.

[Wieslaw]

Similarly, it was not clear, how were painted Polish tanks and armored vehicles in September 1939. First, the dominating opinion was they were only green; I saw such schemes in earlier books. And now there's no doubt that they had three color camouflage (there could be exceptions). So, the later, the more we know about that times...

Wieslaw (still surprised, very surprised)

[flpickupman]

Using captured Allied paint in North Africa was fairly common considering the Germans had such a hard time getting any supplies across the Med. They used US paint, British paint, and even Italian paint. Most schemes were typically half-assed; paint thinned with gasoiline and applied with mops or brooms. Whatever was on hand.

Considering they used captured US and British tanks and equipment, I'd consider it unusual if they chose not to use other captured stuff(paint included).

[GooglyDoogly]

I don't know...it's highly unlikely. To use the N. Africa example, the Germans then are in retreat when the Americans came, so when did they capture the paints? Did the Germans ever penetrated deep into allied lines into allied rear areas to capture miscellaneous equipment like....paint? Maybe they captured them after defeating an allied unit in battle...but during that time, U.S. logistics are still kinda crappy, that sometimes, even ammo and food were in short supply to individual units, so I doubt they'd be carrying extra cans of paints into battle.

Furthermore, when they had the time and leisure, Germans paint captured equipments in their own colors, for recognition purposes and to minimize friendly fire. So I doubt they're gonna paint their vehicles in allied colors...

[KAMIKAZE]

Half of the time in the North African Campaign the captured enemy equipment was not even repainted. It was just covered with larger then normal national insignia. There is a good example of a British Matilda captured by the Germans in the book Encyclopedia Of
German Tanks of World War Two. It has no less than 4 over-sized Balkenkrantz. on just one side. See the section on captured enemy vehicles on pg.234. There is also a picture of a Sherman Firefly that was kept in standard base color with a little red brown sprayed on in patches on pg.243. This particular book is pretty decent. The authors are Peter Chamberlain and Hillary Doyle with technical assistance from Thomas Jentz. Although there are no color plates, the shades of color are very apparent and the technical information on subtypes and variations is superb.

Mark