Dragon Armour: The slippery slope

AMERICAN_GRENADIER · Post by **AMERICAN_GRENADIER** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:24 pm

1ST of all the process of producing diecast models doesnt always mean metal. Diecast is a production process which can be plastic and plastic only.
models are made by injection molds. totally different than diecast production.

Tshintl · Post by **Tshintl** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:25 pm

AMERICAN_GRENADIER wrote:1ST of all the process of producing diecast models doesnt always mean metal. Diecast is a production process which can be plastic and plastic only.
models are made by injection molds. totally different than diecast production.

Exactly, pretty common knowledge amongst collectors too.

AMERICAN_GRENADIER · Post by **AMERICAN_GRENADIER** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:08 pm

Tshintl wrote:
AMERICAN_GRENADIER wrote:1ST of all the process of producing diecast models doesnt always mean metal. Diecast is a production process which can be plastic and plastic only.
models are made by injection molds. totally different than diecast production.
Exactly, pretty common knowledge amongst collectors too.

you just made my point! but lets agree to disagree

Tshintl · Post by **Tshintl** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:41 pm

LOL, this topic has been about diecast metal or the lack of, not plastic (re-read the original post which this centers on). But even diecast plastic doesn't matter as they don't use diecast plastic in their DA line either. Even if I hadn't spoken to Liam directly at Dragon about this very subject, that would sound simply ridiculous and make absolutely no sense. Let's make an identical plastic part to one we already have but using a different manufacturing technique, who cares that it would cost twice as much and look no different than what's already available. As stated above...

-Both lines are 1/72 scale
-Both lines are plastic
-Both lines release the same types of AFV's (and tactical markings and from the same military units/formations)
-Both lines use the same paint schemes (the plastic kit line includes a diagram showing the same paint schemes as used on the DA line)
-Both lines have the same dimensions and look identical (I’ve dissected a DA Tiger, Panther and Sherman and compared those parts to those included with the plastic kits, they match 100% down to the millimeter).

Despite all these overwhelming similarities, you imply Dragon decided to spend twice as much and make diecast plastic parts that are 100% identical to the plastic injection molded parts they already have available. Yet you also stated they are trying to keep their prices down which goes completely against what you're claiming Dragon is doing in the first place!

We can agree to disagree, that's cool. I've received my information from Liam at Dragon Models so I'm not too worried about this, especially when there are contradictions.

GooglyDoogly · Post by **GooglyDoogly** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:00 pm

AMERICAN_GRENADIER wrote:its not true that they use the kits and have people put them together. thats crazy!!! Its a totally different factory. they use some of the same molds for some parts thats true. but the assembly process is totally different. Ive talked with Dragon on many ocassions and even have watch factory video footage. It is not model kits.

I know, that's why I said that the pre-made DAs are the dumbed-down version of the kits. They're in no way in the same league as a Dragon 1/72 that's built OOB.

Same plastic parts, but built and packaged differently. Why would Dragon be stupid enough to spend time, money, and effort, to do two different toolings on two similar models at the same scale, when they can use the same molds and package them differently?

Kinda like with 21st 1/32 kits. Or do you guys think that those aren't the same as the pre-built versions?

ltcbj wrote: Why would the modeling community complain about things they don't have any dealing with?

When Dragon released their 1/72 armor kit line, they have metal hulls....

Here's an example...
http://www.rollmodels.net/nreviews/armo ... mtiger.php

So yeah. Anyways. You seem to believe what you want to believe, so there ya go.

BTW, Dragon may have removed the metal content on their pre-built models, but the trade-off is the increase of accuracy and details on the newer models. Pretty nice trade-off, IMHO. So Dragon isn't just ripping you.

ltcbj · Post by **ltcbj** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:11 am

Okay. So Dragon released some kits with metal hulls (clearly Panthers. The Tigers had metal turrets.) aand some modelers complained because it is a PITA to glue metal and plastic together.

That was all it took to divert Dragon from their stated and (highly) advertised aim of producing a (metal) die-cast series of made tank models for the impatient and unskilled.

Actually, I believe it.

ltcbj · Post by **ltcbj** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:15 am

But it makes no real sense. If these are made in different places. Sell (presumably) to different constituencies and are on separate production lines there is no reason that they should have a) put the metal pieces as part of a plastic kit and/or 2) discontinued the production of the metal DA line because they did (a).

There's just a rational disconnect there.

GooglyDoogly · Post by **GooglyDoogly** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:30 pm

ltcbj wrote:Okay. So Dragon released some kits with metal hulls (clearly Panthers. The Tigers had metal turrets.) aand some modelers complained because it is a PITA to glue metal and plastic together.

That was all it took to divert Dragon from their stated and (highly) advertised aim of producing a (metal) die-cast series of made tank models for the impatient and unskilled.

Actually, I believe it.

Because those "some modelers" are their bread and butter. Their wants and needs gets filled first. Dragon is a very successful company because they listen to the wish of their core buyers.

If you claim otherwise, have a look at how Dragon always improves on their models. When modelers find the most minute inaccuracy, Dragon always comes back and fix it.

We should be happy that Dragon is even making stuff for the pre-built hobby, and for a relatively cheap price at that. They don't need to. They get the majority of their profits from their model kits and to some extent, their 1/6th line.

And why complain about the lack of diecast? Is that the only reason why you buy (or used to buy) them? If so, then that's just sad. I thought that you'd collect these little gems because of what they represent, ie: models of historically accurate tanks.

So Dragon has removed the metal content. So what? In return, they produce more tanks (therefore, more selection for us consumers) because it's cheaper and faster to do molding in plastic rather than metal AND they look nicer to boot.

But I guess Dragon was stupid. They thought that people buy the DA series because people actually like accurately-rendered, small-scale Tigers, Panthers, ISU-152s, Fireflys, etc. But no. I guess we just like to collect chunks of metal.

ltcbj · Post by **ltcbj** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 1:15 pm

I certainly prefer "chunks of metal" to plastic.

If Dragon wants to produce plastic toys and they can maintain their sales doing so more power to them.

If they say they will produce metal tanks and some ornery plastic kit builders get a thorn in their butts over it because it violates their plastic sensiblities and Dragon says "hey, we give up" and does what some utterly uneffected group wants then screw-em.

Any one who wants to pay $20+ for a 1/72 scale plastic toy can and apparently will.

AMERICAN_GRENADIER · Post by **AMERICAN_GRENADIER** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:58 pm

Tshintl,
ok I spoke with Dragon for over an hour today. You keep talking about Liam? He hasnt worked there for years! he was a salesman and only there a short time. The kits are NOT!! the same as the Diecast prebuilt. the process as i have stated is totally different. some of the smaller components are the same this is true. They removed most of the metal components to save money and keep prices down. again as i have stated. This had nothing to do with modelers at all. they made the decision when China continued to raise manufactoring prices. The main difference from the kits is the main parts. hulls and turrets are made in one piece. Thats the diecast production process. model kits are injection molds and main body pieces generally need to be put together. A tank hull can be 2 or 3 pieces. Different technology! NOT THE SAME!
I hope we can now put this to bed

ltcbj · Post by **ltcbj** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:59 pm

Sleep in the knowledge that we lost the die-cast metal due to corporate cheapness.

Another myth busted.

ltcbj · Post by **ltcbj** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:01 pm