I worry about 21C.....

[Threetoughtrucks]

New boxes?

New paintjobs?

Pleeeeaaaase.

How stupid does 21C think we are? We are going to keep spending our money to buy the same product, repainted or with a new box?

We make legimate suggestions....they listened to us once...taking the "251" halftrack and adding guns and rockets and the White half-track adding the quad. This made new models we liked and bought and proudly displayed these new models. There are more good suggestions out there to use existing molds for tanks and turning them into tank killing versions and AA versions of the existing tanks......even just adding a 57mm or 105mm cannon to the White half-track and then having the gun molds to make stand alone pieces like they did with the quad .50. These are good suggestions 21C can use, but are they even listening because the "big picture" for 21C's future does not include the 1/18 scale?????

How many "division or air group collectors" are there out there? Collecting dozens of the same plane or vehicle? That will jump up and down and say great, new packaging, new paint....great, I'll take three....give me a break.

Are they throwing us a bone with the KT and the 88....which, BTW, we only have promises of 07 delivery and the end of 07 is fast looming up....

If 21C is leaving 1/18, let 21C have the b**ls to tell us and then we will still buy the few items they release in 1/18.....like the dregs they give us in 1/6, despite the desire to buy is out there........and we can find other things to occupy us while we wait on the pearls 21C leaves us....

TTT

[grunt1]

Agreed.. why they haven't kitbashed the hell out of the Panzer IV chassis is beyond understanding..

FoV's Bravo Team couldn't have had better timing..

[MightyMustang]

So are you saying that we have had enough of re-paints of Mustangs, Corsairs ect? I somewhat agree. We do need to see a P-51B or C. We could use a birdcage version of the Corsair or maybe a F4U-4. Or how about a F-14 Tomcat?

[flayrah]

OK, I haven't posted to a discussion in a LONG time - ever since my 'Tender Terror" debacle - but I have to say what's being posted now are some of the same heads up issues with 21st I've been mentioning for months, if not years. 21st does not care about the collector, or even about the casual customer - they only care about their profit margin. And yes, making money is what business is about - but 21st doesn't recognize they will make MORE money, and for LONGER time, if they listen to their customers; produce what they say they will, when they say they will (or if they can't do that, then don't announce at all, just have the items appear on the shelves like the new FOV); and address quality and customer service. After following them since their first days in 1:6, nothing they do surprises me now (Quote - "we make 1:6 uniforms and gear, and will never [italics added] make figures or vehicles.")

I'll now return to my little customizing corner.

[digger]

Come on guys...I think we have heard all this before. Or at least most of it. In the end, all these companies have a similar limitation - they need someone to buy a TON of these things before they can justify making them. And sometimes when someone wants to buy a TON, they don't want to wait a year for a new mold. What do you get? A repaint, a variant, etc..

Why do the bbi figs still have those stupid chutes? Because that's what the stores order. We certainly don't want that, but as we know by now it is only indirectly about what we want. We begged for the KT and 88, here they come, and we're already moaning. Let's put our money where our mouth is..

[GooglyDoogly]

I guess the reason a lot of people are disappointed right now is because TKO posted a "flood" of news in the 1/18 section.

And the "flood" turned out to be aimed at the 1/32 crowd.

Oh wells. The bright side is that 21st's 1/18 products seems to get better and better which each new stuff they put out (not counting the given factory defects)!

[immeww2]

Could it be that FOV has an inkling that 21st will be cutting back their production in 1/18th items and they in turn will now pick up the slack? I don't know, but the timing for the 1/18th FOV items showing up unannounced is quite surprising.

[grunt1]

- they need someone to buy a TON of these things before they can justify making them.

Correct. Clearly Target wanted a TON of Military toys.. 21C either lost the bid or didn't respond to the bid request. Perhaps they have a contractual issue with Walmart and they are restricted from selling to other big box retailers? (Their sales to Target's online store being a loophole).

FoV and BBI don't have that issue so they are swinging away. Heck, FoV even surprised us by showing up in Meijer recently.

Hopefully this will compel them to to action. Not the "We have a Phantom too" type, but the "Surprise guys, here's a T-34, Jadgpanther, A-10 and a load of Brits and Russians to boot.." kind.

[digger]

Target already had a deal with fov, so their foot was in the door. Same with bbi, remember combat command? I'm actually glad 21C didn't wind up at Target or else they likely would have had to do what bbi did to get in - re-release all the old stuff, and we are all growing tired of that I think.

I don't think 21C needs surprises. They are making a KT and nobody else is. They are making an 88, and they made a Pak 40. These are all pieces people were clamoring for, IIRC.

[tko211]

Repaints on tooling are nothing new to the industry. It's not just a 21st thing. Everyone has to do it to spread out the costs on tooling. How many P-51D's has BBI done, how many corsairs by BBI?

I do agree that 21st does more repaints, but they also make the majority of the product in any one year.

As for calling foul on reapints like the Pak-40... Come on! This is only S2 guys... You know it HAS to be done. This should not be new to any of us. As for new products in 1:18. There again I have to disagree that 21st is something to worry about. 21st makes more new products than all the other combined on any year! I can make a list for anyone who would like to see one.

If you don't like the 21st repaint of the Pak-40, the various hanomags, P-38's and so on, you should buy them from the other places... Wait. The others don't make any of those products. Sorry for the rant there but I think it's a symptom of not geeting a toy fix today and not a symptom of 21st as a whole. Just my opinion as a fan myself.

[King O' Fools]

If I may chime in… I think there are two separate issues here. One is production of new models from scratch. That takes time and I think most people on this board would be willing to cut 21c some slack for <b>OCASSIONAL</b> delays in production as long as the final product is really worth it (provided it doesn’t take forever, of course).

But if they announce a release date, then they should stick to it.

The other issue is questionable business decisions. For example, why put out a brand new BBD box? Does anyone here believe people are going to buy that plane in droves for the artwork on the box alone? Instead of having a new box for the BBD, wouldn’t it make more sense for 21c to release the Mig Mad Mavis? It’s a repaint. And one that’s been announced and up for pre-order IIRC for quite some time now.

So, on the one hand, there are new projects that haven’t come to fruition yet. These take time to complete, like the Phantom or the Mitchell. And, on the other, we have new boxes and repaints that are questionable at best from a business perspective because apparently they don’t appeal to collectors that much (I happen to think the California Cuite and the Bunker Hill Avenger look great and wouldn’t mind having more repaints as gorgeous as these coming our way, if they’re done right). But 21c would be making more money if they released another Spitfire or Super Cobra, IMO.

[olifant]

I only dabble in 1/18th and I can share everyone's passion and desire for more, new products, but I think we have to keep it in perspective.

No company goes to bat with a plan they feel will loose money. 21C is no different. My guess is that hardcore collectors like us are at best a large minority in the sales percentages. Most of the business from WM probably goes to someone who has a one-time gift or impulse purchase. This feeds the constant P-51 repaints as they will sell.

Is the casual buyer really interested in a scale Wirblewind? Do they notice that historically inaccurate combinations of Sherman hull/suspension are sitting on store shelves? I don't believe so.

BBI recently released a beautiful Hellcat, arguably the best 1/18th release ever and I saw them ripped apart over issues of a slightly large canopy and potentially unnecessary rocket mount holes. I can only speak for myself but I am grateful they took the business risk to sink the money into development and sales to make this happen. I think it is nothing short of miraculous that prices have remained nearly static throughout the hobby while improving quality and accuracy.

Just months after a Sabre and MIG 17 release everyone is chomping at the bit demanding their dues that we see an F-4 and MIG 21 by this Christmas. I want to take a little more time to admire what has been accomplished.

Please, lets continue to discuss our wishes and desires. Lets continue to hope the manufacturers listen to our pleas. I am even OK with critiquing each piece that is released. But don't let us bite the hands that feed us. If I represented one of the manufacturers and was reading posts on this site I would feel that nothing I did would ever please the hardcore collector crowd and write us off.

TKO, Mike and Jason, do you ever feel this way? I think honest feedback from you may help this forum rather than alienate us from you.

Lets count our blessings and celebrate each release rather than gripe over every move made by the manufacturers.

[scbvideoboy]

complaints are always going to be, hell even the matchbox guys complain about a $1.00 car...

The main thing I feel is with the limited distribution, and no ironclad release dates, no idea where or whom will carry it, the guys are getting stressed about NOT getting the newest release.

Cause we ALL know, you might see it ONCE at a random WM and then never again, unless ebay or private seller...or 40% more online.

And stress creates the outbursts, and the doom and gloom.

Like today the FOV post, I ran out of the house to the nearest target to see, why because I wanted another bradley? No because if I didn't get one if they have it I might not ever see one again.

off topic it seems BBI restocks items sold...

I have to cut back on my toy spending, but there I was looking at a etailer with the 21C Me262...do I really want to spend $65 plus shipping or GAMBLE that 21C will have it before Christmas on the WM shelves for $39.99.

now where are my toys!!!

DH

[grunt1]

I'm very happy and even excited about the repaints like the new Pak 40, the updated Ottos, etc.. and even hope to see a few repaints of the 88 along the way.

But TKO, keep in mind this discussion is in the 1:18 forum. We've all noticed (hard not to) that 21C has a ton of products and is supporting at least five different scales. The problem is that they've come at the cost of 1:18.. Which is what the people in this particular part of the forum care most about..

My main beef is that (unless I have forgotten something major) that it's been a really long time since a new Tank has been released.. Entire theaters are being left un-touched (eastern front)

Clearly the resources that 21C uses to sculpt new molds are being used to develop new items in other scales at the sacrifice of 1:18. Tell me that isn't so..

It's not a gripe against 21C, I am a happy customer and will continue to be for a long time.. But I (and I think the rest of us) want more in 1:18 and that seems to be falling on deaf ears in San Leandro.

So it's refreshing to see two more competitors enter the space, not because I want trouble for 21C, but that they may inspire 21C to get back on the XD bus and take us somewhere. After all, they started this mess..

[MG-42]

I don't worry about them anymore.

v MG

[scbvideoboy]

my feeling as well and I expressed it some time back when the news was for 1/48 and 1/144 (who cares) and all the 1/32 stuff that is taking away resources from the main 1/18 line.

I don't know how many people buy this stuff as it seems to clog the shelves.

I can go down to the hobby shop and buy tons of 1/72, 1/48, 1/32, 1/35 planes and tanks made of plastic and some metal that are a hell of lot better in scale and detail.

What I can't do is go to a store on a regular basis and buy the complete line of available product in 1/18. It's like some XD lottery game.

I do know if businesses don't listen to their customers, they (customers) will go somewhere else.

I don't know anything about WM and future stockage, especially since all the latest planes are taking a bath. Of course there is still a full isle of spiderman 3 crap...

Because when it comes down to it, we are only customers.

DH

[ARMY GROUP 1]

Most people would say I need to get a life, but at least I admit I am addicted to 1/18 and I know I spend far too much of my time around this magical number. Since November 2001 when I started with the PANTHER, my motivation has been driven primarily by the Tiger, Panther, Mark 1V, 4 x 251 halftracks, Kubelwagon & Pak40 gun, which tranposes to 9 items in all, over 6 years. The 9 items expand by duplicates & repaints to 80 items, but I just find the core items are too slow in coming and so I agree with most of the comments in this thread. It is extremely frustrating to wait month after month for a morsel to feed this addiction. I would be lost without the ongoing 21st 1/18 ww11 items, therefore I will always hold out, but at times it seems cruel on 1/18 collectors, when you know what 21st could do in this range, if they chose to.

[V2 MAN]

I agree with tko But although i am a little disappointed on the p51 repaint. Just to keep in mind we are just a small group here. There are more collectors, and fans of the hobby. Plus there are people who are starters everyday So i am not worrying about 21st century.

[Threetoughtrucks]

Some interesting comments......some very OT from my rant but of course, that is not unusual for this crowd.

To keep guys from reading that wrong, I'll just say, that is not a complaint about this board, which I personally feel is the fairest board in any scale.

Let me just say that, as most of you know, I am a fan of 21C. I have every vehicle 21C has produced in both 1/6 and 1/18 and a few of that tiny 1/32 scale. Over the years, I have gladly bought all the 21C vehicles except the 1/6 Bradly and the recent quad .50 on the trailer in 1/18 (which I will get soon)......I do not have every paint job and personally I really see no reason to do so and a few I have more that one.......CC's in 1/18 (4 left) and 1/6 (2 left), M-41's and Panthers in 1/18, as well as 1/6 Stuarts (3), Scout Cars (2), Kubelwagen (2), Kettengrads (2) and Jeeps (6).

My money is where my mouth is and I like the 21C production line BUT I would just like to see more new 1/18 armor or trucks. I have great hopes for the KT but I do believe 21C is, in the long run, going to leave 1/18, just like they dropped 1/6. Money is their bottom line, I don't think that is wrong but money was to be made in their superb 1/6 vehicles but they dropped that line after two clunkers, we (Dark Side 1/6 guys voted on those two with our closed wallets) and I feel 1/18 can go the same way.....if a couple releases turn out to be clunkers at the cash registers...

Time will tell and I really hope I am wrong..

TTT

I enj

[aferguson]

you can't blame availability at all on 21c. They make and ship the stuff to the retailers and that's it. If a retailer, ie WM, doesn't distribute it well that is completely out of the control of 21c. I'm sure they'd love to see their stuff spread around better; less bitching from us to listen to and WM would probably sell more at full pop and not have to deep discount to move clogged shelves and thus be happy to restock with new 21c product. But as we know, WM doesnt' distribute very well and that's just the way it is. XD is of virtually zero importance to them in the grand scheme of running their business.

So then, the only beefs with 21c can be product quality, variety and release times. I don't think very many of us have a big problem with quality...at least we shouldnt'. Every new thing they release has been better than the ones before, whether it be planes, armour or figures. Release times...well, they've been forced into announcing items well before they are going to be ready to be released (F4, B25, Mig21) and i'm sure they didn't want to but felt they had to under the circumstances. If you know the whole story, it was a case of damned if they do and damned if they don't. So they did, and are damned for it, by some of us, anyway.

Product variety. This is a ligitimate area for concern but we have to realize that 1/18 will NEVER EVER EVER have anything near the variety that the smaller scales, including 32X, get. And it's always going to be that way. The smaller items are faster, cheaper to make and represent way less risk, monetarily. I agree that there are some key pieces of armour and aircraft that should have been made by now after 7 years of XD.

But two of them are about to come out (KT and 88 ) and armour does seem to be on the upswing, so more is likely. FOV's entry into 1/18 while i'm sure not welcomed by 21c is a great bit of news for armour buffs. While i doubt FOV will do planes in this scale, i think they will do a fair bit of armour, IF the stuff sells well at Target, which at the price point offered i suspect it will.

FOV is now our best bet for seeing stugs, 8 ton halftracks, t34's, british armour, more modern armour etc.

This year has been a big disappointment for me......i was expecting at least 6 new planes plus several armour pieces by now and we've had 1 plane and armour has been promised but little delivered. That said, the future is still bright....lots of good stuff is probable and quality is only going to improve.

[VMF115]

I agree with TKO , and haveing FOV in the mix now will only make things better for the adult collector. As for bbi makeing the best 1/18 aircraft out there....well..I think not. I think we will see better stuf from 21st, AT and FOV.....and I think bbi will make still make toys for kids while the rest make collectibles for the adults...that is unless bbi follows the rest. guys the 1/18 scale is not going to die away...just look FOV just steped in the ring. DING....DING... I am betting on 21st being the champ.

[VMF115]

Besides as for the repaints go……I think the repaints are a good idea.
Why…repaints at one point in time will be just pure profits…with those profits they can use it to make more new 1/18th stuff. So bring on the repaints.

Ok now lets not beat up TKO and 21st over this.

[Jolly Roger]

im not worried im sure ill get a Phantom before the Sun goes supernova..

[WGP Klaus]

I'm not worried, hence the reason I collect 32nd/48th/72nd scales, always something to keep me busy and when a 1:18 item hits the shelves, it's like Christmas morning, so morale of the story, branch out or find a different hobby as we know 21st takes it's time and is slow to the shelves with new items, but as mentioned above, with Unimax now in the mix, this should get interesting.