Toys or models what is it going to be?

[VMF115]

What do we call our 1:18th and 1:32 stuff?
DO we call them toys or do we call the models/collectables?
If the manufacturers regard them as toys , I can see their reluctance in making the Big 1:18 birds. The reason is who in their right mind is going to give their son or daughter a 1:18 detailed b-17...or f-14 that can break, toys that don’t do anything other then sit their with no gizmos, needs to sell cheap. No parent is going to spend 200+ on a F-14 unless they have trump as a father,. Now, Some collectors out there will buy them due to their likeness of the real thing. How ever many of the diecast collectors out there and manly aviation buffs will stay away from them.

I think for this hobby to survive these 1:18 “toys” need to be marked as 1”18th prebuilt models and the aviation buff and younger teenagers interested in military aviation needs to be the primary market. We have seen Admiral Toys do this with their me-262 and 21st with their new 88 flack gun these two models would be busted if they where abused in their play.


I don’t think bbi will make an F-14 simply because there is no market for it, it’s to big and would be to costly for the average consumer to buy one for little destructive ‘jimmy”, if they did make one it would it would look like there A-10. The only market for the F-14 are the collectors of aviation who have deep pockets, that would be us on this forum and those that collect aviation models. And even then not all of us have deep pockets.

SO if we want cheap 1:18th toys then I think we will not see an F-14. F-15, ect

but if we do want want cheap 1;18 models then we might see the F-14,F-15 ect. and whe nI say cheap I mean cheaper then Hph models, priced around 200-400 USD.

[Rowsdower]

I say spend all that R&D money on designing new 1:32 and 1:72 scale aircraft! Huzzah!!

[VMF115]

I say spend all that R&D money on designing new 1:32 and 1:72 scale aircraft! Huzzah!!

1:18 is the only way to go in my book, I have seen the 1:32 scale birds and I am not to happy with the detail.

[Birddog]

I say spend all that R&D money on designing new 1:32 and 1:72 scale aircraft! Huzzah!!

.....I think you're on the wrong part of this forum....that's nonsense talk in these parts...

[Rowsdower]

lol: .....I think you're on the wrong part of this forum....that's nonsense talk in these parts...

Teehee!
I'm just a rabblerouser! Err, Rowsdower..

[tmanthegreat]

What do we call our 1:18th and 1:32 stuff?
DO we call them toys or do we call the models/collectables?

I think we have to regard these are pretty much being small-scale models. They have been this way since the beginning. Compare our planes and vehicles with the GI Joe, PTE, Star Wars, and other toy soldiers out there and obviously the products made by 21c, AT, BBI, Unimax, Dragon, and etc. are way ahead of them in terms of detail, functionality, and realism.

21c, FOV, and BBI have to market their items as "toys" and sell them at mass retail in order to generate profits and stay in the game. (Look what's happening to AT on the flipside.) It just seems that we collectors are the ones who mostly buy this stuff with random purchases being made by the occasional average customer. (Which is why, at least in my area, 21c and BBI products usually sit around for a while and then get heavily discounted.)

There are far more fans of military history that recognize and purchase 21c and BBI products than just the few of us on this board, so I don't think we're entirely a minority. Certainly, there are many more people who would love this stuff and simply don't know it exists yet. 21c, BBI, FOV and the other companies could do themselves a service and better-advertise their products and the stores where they're being sold at. The websites listings on the box are a start, but only work if you happen to walk into the Toy aisle and get the item. Magazine ads in the approporiate publications or even a TV slot on the History or Military channel could do wonders!

Now, here I've let loose another string of non-sensical thoughts trying to sound like I'm in the know about a marketing stragegy I know little about

[hworth18]

I say spend all that R&D money on designing new 1:32 and 1:72 scale aircraft! Huzzah!!

.....I think you're on the wrong part of this forum....that's nonsense talk in these parts...

I think you all should listen to Rowsdower, for he is the voice of the future.. Just read Badcats blog and you'll see that they have a good clutch on market trends..
1/18 will soon go the way of the Dodo bird in a few years.. Just as 1/6 was a big thing a few years ago, try and find a broad range of product in 1/6 on the open market and you'll likely be disappointed.. The major manufacturers are now seeing the light and realizing that 1/32 (and smaller) is the future of collectors.. So much more can be made in the smaller scales and at more reasonable prices.. So get'em while you can and those of you waiting for a B-17/A-10, I hate to say it and burst your bubble, but you'll never see one in mass production..

Its okay though, we will welcome all to the 1/32 forum as brothers..

[VMF115]

hworth18 don’t take what badcat says as the gospel, when I have asked 21st sell's rep he said their intl was wrong, he said the b-25,F-4, and the Mig 21 are going to be made. but we will not see them this year.

[Birddog]

.....I think you're on the wrong part of this forum....that's nonsense talk in these parts...

I think you all should listen to Rowsdower, for he is the voice of the future.. Just read Badcats blog and you'll see that they have a good clutch on market trends..
1/18 will soon go the way of the Dodo bird in a few years.. Just as 1/6 was a big thing a few years ago, try and find a broad range of product in 1/6 on the open market and you'll likely be disappointed.. The major manufacturers are now seeing the light and realizing that 1/32 (and smaller) is the future of collectors.. So much more can be made in the smaller scales and at more reasonable prices.. So get'em while you can and those of you waiting for a B-17/A-10, I hate to say it and burst your bubble, but you'll never see one in mass production..

Its okay though, we will welcome all to the 1/32 forum as brothers..

You haven't burst my bubble. I still believe in the larger jets and maybe bombers making it to 1/18 scale someday. Like I previously said:

.....I think you're on the wrong part of this forum....that's nonsense talk in these parts...

[FieroDude]

Magazine ads in the approporiate publications or even a TV slot on the History or Military channel could do wonders!

Now, here I've let loose another string of non-sensical thoughts trying to sound like I'm in the know about a marketing stragegy I know little about

I do have to wonder why nobody has taken the step. I researched rates for a couple targeted publications and they were relatively inexpensive compared to a lot of magazines. And a tie-in to a Dogfights show (Order a 1:18 display model of today's aircraft for only $79.95!) could work get a lot of attention, especially if the paint scheme matched the featured plane(s). This is in contrast to the 21st Century approach to movie tie-ins like Sahara or Sky Captain--wait until the movie is already loing gone and THEN release movie related products. But seriously--if you knew that maybe every third new episode of Dogfights would feature the unveiling of a new release, ready to order, wouldn't you be even more inclined to watch?

[Birddog]

This is in contrast to the 21st Century approach to movie tie-ins like Sahara or Sky Captain--wait until the movie is already loing gone and THEN release movie related products.

.....more like wait until the movie comes out on DVD and is gone, THEN release the movie related products....

[VMF115]

1:18th scale planes are being advertised in 1:18 magazines, cant remember which ones, but I have seen them in WWII magazine and other aviation mags

[MG-42]

I don't consider what I have in my collection , whatever the scale may be , regarded as toys. ... They're too detailed for that.

You don't call the paint for these , toy-paint ,.. do you ? ...

[hworth18]

hworth18 don’t take what badcat says as the gospel, when I have asked 21st sell's rep he said their intl was wrong, he said the b-25,F-4, and the Mig 21 are going to be made. but we will not see them this year.

Oh, I'm not.. But being a primary collector of 1/72 scale and seeing concerns of larger scale collectors that they are "running out of room", I think what Badcat says has alot of merit and I wouldn't discount them..

Btw, Just to be back on topic..
My Corgi (and others) 1/72, 1/48 and 1/32 have "Adult Collectible" written on the box..

[Black Lion VF-213]

Seems to me there's talk that 18 scale will die in the not too distant future. That maybe true. I don't see a very concerted effort for XD marketing. From everything I've seen, it appears that the only semi-mass marketing advertisement happening from any 1:18 manufacturer exists in magazines like Flight Journal, etc and really the advertisement isn't from the manufacturer themselves, rather a distributor like Flying Mule showcasing certaing 18 scale planes in addition to smaller scales too. That's way too limited in scope if the XD 3 want to get more sales.

The XD 3 could try and get television commercials made but that would be too much money spent for too little viewership response.

I believe there are two longshot attempts that must be made by the XD 3 to ensure the sales of 18 scale go through the roof. Although folks here will laugh, I think it's true. XD needs Pop Culture's endorsement. It needs Hollywood's endorsement.

It maybe somewhat costly but it would be far less than a commercial slot- I'm talking about product placement in the right movie(s). Some popular summer blockbuster where the lead character is in a pivotal scene and somehow either one or a couple of planes or tanks from any of the three XD makers is handled and made reference too and becomes some sort of focal point in the movie. Doesn't have to be the main focal point, just something that makes the audience take notice for more than one scene. Then you have more people in America (who otherwise wouldn't have though about previously) thinking about these really cool big airplanes whether they're toys or models, doesn't matter.

There will be some office exec who probably had a dream of flying for the Navy or Air Force or driving a tank for the Army or built model planes/tanks himself and has no idea XD exists, after seeing the movie searches the internet for these planes or tanks and lo and behold by the end of the month he has a Corsair or F-4 Phantom hanging from his office ceiling. Everyone coming by says, "Wow, where did you get that?" or "Awesome, I saw that in _____ (insert movie's name here), I want to get one too".

For some men XD becomes a part of the new thing to decorate their "man space" whether that "man space" is their office at work, their play room at home, their converted garage, etc. For other men it becomes something that brings out some of the lost kid in them that they have swept under and want to enjoy again, like building model planes, trucks, tanks, etc but don't have the time to build kits.

The other Hollywood scenario , Matt Lauer from NBC Today show is doing a fluff or softball piece interviewing either some teenage hearthrob (a la Josh Hartnett) or long time favorite leading man type actor (a la Denzel Washington) at actor's home talking about his next movie or life in general. At some point in the clip the actor is showing off his awesome collection of XD airplane and tanks, troops, and rambles on about how cool history is, etc, his interest in military history. Males, young & old alike, take notice and their interest is peaked.

If what Bad Cat's blogs and some of us here are saying that in order for XD to survive and increase in sales the justify making the uber cool jets and bombers, then I seriously think it must take on some sort of cool factor in America and become part of pop culture.

Look what's happened to John Deere. My cousing works in lawn and garden tractor sales at the John Deere hq in Moline, Ill. He backs up the fact that ever since their company's leaping Deere logo made it big with the Hollywood youth and hip hop/rapper crowd on shirts and hats, they are receiving more gross dollars from shirt & hat, and diecast toys sales than sales of actual tractors. I kid you not. All because many youth, both urban and rural, thinks it's the coolest thing. Whether or not they even know what a combine with a corn reel header is. Obviously John Deere has had a size and age advantage over XD. But their image is now emblazoned in pop culture.

Will it ever reach the levels of Star Wars, Transformers, or GI Joe? Probably not. That's okay, doesn't have too. And never would anyway. A small part of pop culture would be okay. Those toys are all based on fiction where Hollwood can create fantasy. War isn't fantasy. Fantasy appeals to more people than history. Sucks but it's true.

Last thing I'll mention. Here's the long shot. Sorry for erratic rambling. A military movie where at the end of the movie one or more of the three XD makers get a plug for their product. Most likely wouldn't happen. Probably some sort of legal issue. But if they succeded they'd easily direct market to war enthusiasts without going the pop culture route.

[MG-42]

Good observation "Black Lion" ,.... but

...... if XD went commercial , Hollywood style nationwide , it might kill XD. ... The least advertisement makes them that much more collectable , except what's advertised on their boxes.

Just word of mouth , reputation wise , speaks a thousand words.

Advertisement costs Big $$$$$ !

[Coreyeagle48]

Greetings:

I honestly believe that the 1/18 scale products will die soon too if the companies do not start doing something about it. You can advertise, you can put them in movies, you can plug them on the history channel all you want to, but it comes down to one thing. There needs to be NEW product out on the shelves for people to buy.

This year, we have seen very little new product on the shelves with the exception of the Hellcat. Sure, there is BBI at Target, but it is the same thing that many of the collectors have already gotten at Toys R Us in the first place. The people that have space issues as mentioned before have no need for more Apaches or Blackhawks, they are saving the space they have left for new items like the Hellcat. There has been nothing from 21st on the B-25, F-4 or MIG-21 or any new airplane. If it takes them as long to put these out as it did for the Avenger, they are in serious trouble in the scale. As far as Admiral goes, all due respect to them, but they need to let that F-4 situation go and move forward. I understand the bitterness, but that happens in industry, move on. If they sulk about it, they will go out of business. They should keep working on that Dauntless, that will be a beauty and they will sell it. All three companies should be moving forward and looking toward future offerings, not what they can rerelease or repaint for next year.

The repaints have also gotten entirely out of control. Two or three schemes of one airplane is enough. I think 21st especially has just blown the repaint idea beyond the point of no return. Do we really need 13 different schemes for the P-51? People who have space issues only have one P-51, and while it is good you can pick your scheme, it is also bad there are so many of them. Enough is enough. Take for example museums, do museums have multiples of airplanes. The answer is no. They have one of each airplane, the one they were able to buy or get donated to them. Very seldom does a museum have two of the same airplane unless they are very different versions. Although there will always be the person that wants multiple schemes, the collectors who want to represent multiple airplanes do not want this. It has been stated many times on this forum we do not want this and companies don't seem to listen. They just pump out another scheme. When I show my 32 scale collection off to people, they are most impressed by the variety of the airplanes and types of planes in my collection. They would not be impressed or be interested in the models if they were all the same airplane.

I think the repaints also hurt the general public sales as well. Consumers are smart, and I am sure they know that the airplane is the same, just repainted. I remember as a kid wanting to buy matchbox cars that were the same but in different colors, Mom said "Pick one". I think any of the people buying these as toys just simply pick one as well. However, they would be more tempted to buy if there are two different models available. I think the 32X Dogfight sets are such a success because there are two different models there. It's a great idea!

The companies also need to stop making the same airplane! 1/18 scale is big enough, and as stated, many collectors only have room for one of a particular aircraft, at most two. So why are the companies hell bent on making the same models. Why do we need two companies producing a 262, or an F-86. Then there was the latest F-4 that apparently 21st and Admiral both want to make. There is no need to overlap aircraft when there are tons of different planes that could be made. It is different in smaller scales where space is not the issue, but in this large of a scale, space is an issue, and the companies should realize that people would be more keen on buying a new model than the same airplane from another company.

If the companies want this scale to stay alive, they need to get on the ball. They need to offer a variety of airplanes and keep the public interested in the scale. The same 109 or the same P-51 in a new paint scheme is not going to do it anymore. They need to offer new airplanes they think will sell and that have good quality. The crap paint jobs we have seen on some of these aircraft aren't going to cut it either.

That being said I also think 1/18 will be a limited market, and we may only see two companies or even one company continue to do it in the future. They are nice models but they do have space limitations and the sales volume will never be as high as smaller planes due to space and price. I can buy three 32x machines and display them in the space of one XD airplane. I like lots of airplanes and so I will get a scale that offers me the most bang and possiblity of variety for my dollar. THere have been great 32x airplanes this year. I hope that continues down the road.

I think some of the comments coming from Rob at BadCat may reflect some of these problems. Think of the situation he may be in, because there are two 262's, he may not sell as many of either one as he used to. I also think the repaints sometimes do not sell well, and as a result he is sitting on inventory he needs to move at a loss. While I do not think his comments have been supportive of the scale recently, I can see where he is coming from and understand his opinion. He needs money to stay in business and perhaps the current offerings from the companies just aren't doing what they used to. Plus, XD takes up a lot of stock room. I believe that is what hurts it at Walmart. Unless they sell like crazy, Walmart won't give it the shelf space.

And I honestly believe some of the 32x planes are better detailed and are of better quality than the larger scale planes. But that is my opinion. I also think you are seeing more and more 32X stuff because it sells a lot better and 21st knows it. Why do you think BBI wants to do that scale as well? They aren't idoits after all, they know 21sT and FOV is selling stuff in that scale.

So are these models or toys??? I believe it depends on the person. I view them as high quality toys but good enough to pass for models. My grandfather thought I built the P-51C. LOL

That is just my opinion of course.

Corey

[VMF115]

I agree the Big three or big 2 ½ needs to get the word out more efficiently, they need to smartly advertise their products. The biggest problem with TV commercials is the cost. don’t remember the exact cost, but for a prime time airing would probably cost as much as the tooling and molds to make a new bird. And Flight journal was one of the magazines I forget about but they did an article about 1:18 birds.
I also think that’s why comic-con was appealing to the big three, In terms of cheap exposure. With all the big names in Hollywood being antiwar these days I doubt they would support war toys. Especially war toys that are depicted as US military. But I think Comic-Con is our best hope for mass advertising on a budget.

[Killerf6]

I for one love the 1/18 scale planes, and I wish that all the ones Badcat mentioned would get made just to prove him wrong, but I'm also a realist, and even I see issues with our hobby.

I know a lot of you are down on Badcat for what he said in his blog, and I hope he is wrong, but he is in the business, and he sees trends that us average people don't see.


One of the problems that 1/18 scale models/toys face is that the companies have to move a lot of product to keep the price down. So it is a definite advantage to have a national retailer carrying your product. Now here comes the problem. Fewer retailers are willing to give up shelf space to large boxes that move slowly. As some of you may notice it is getting harder to find 1/18 planes in your local Walmart. One in my area no longer has them, and the other one (that I haven't been to in a few weeks) had six. Three camo mig 15's, and three huff F-86's, not a very good selection if you ask me. Now, for everyone that got a great deal on xd that was on clearance, in the long run that was a bad thing. It means that Walmart felt like they had to clearance that item to get it off the shelf.

Now another problem is finding subjects to model. Yeah I know everyone has one they want done ie. the A-10, F-14, B-17, etc. Now those are neat planes, and I would buy at least one of each if the price could be kept reasonable, but the are large, relatively complex, and may not sell very well. Shoot we on this board couldn't even agree on which Japanese plane from WWII should be made. Now imagine being a company that has to come up with something that you can sell many of, and you have to sell many to recoupe your investment plus make a profit. And yes companies are in business to make money, that is the primary goal.

So I'm enjoying the 1/18 scale planes that I have, and all the new ones that come out are just gravy. I'm not going to get myself worked up over any particular type being made, and yes there are many I would like to see produced in 1/18th.

[aferguson]

the end of 1/18 scale has been predicted and anticipated by many for almost 7 years now. And yet through MANY very HARD TIMES it survived and it's still here and doing better than ever, in most respects. Especially armour.

It will no doubt fade away one day. But not today...and not tomorrow.

[pickelhaube]

As far as using up space at Wal-Mart have you guys ever looked at the other toys they sell? Thomas the train has a whole aile. When the Dukes of Hazard came out they must have had a hundred Gen. Lees. You know the car with the Rebel flag on it. (What does that due with the swatika theory ? ) So don't tell me that the big boxes use up space. They use the space as they want . Maybe like it is THERE party and WE will cry if we want to.

Toys Vs. models? Our beloved XD in my opion is on the fence. They don't have fine details of the models but they do have good lines. The more the details the more the cost. Toys are something kids (us) play with. Give me a cheap rendition of the planes or tanks I love and I will buy plenty. If they need detail, when I get the time I will deal with it . Or not. I do think that 30 repainted P-51s lined up is a purdy thing.

[digger]

the end of 1/18 scale has been predicted and anticipated by many for almost 7 years now. And yet through MANY very HARD TIMES it survived and it's still here and doing better than ever, in most respects. Especially armour.

It will no doubt fade away one day. But not today...and not tomorrow.

Better than ever? Is the Hellcat the first new plane of the year? As memory serves, it is. And from what it seems 1:18 planes are not in any brick and mortar stores at the moment (not counting what is leftover from the months past). Things are pretty good for us armor and figure guys but AC has seen better days frankly..

[Light.Inf.Scout]

I don't really consider them models since there is very minimal assembly and time involved. I used to call them cool toys, but now they are collectibles to me, although to most everyone I know that doesn't collect this stuff...they are toys. I LOVE 1/18TH scale, but it gets too big and expensive, and takes up too much room. Eventually, I think 1/32 will take over. the size and price will deter customers and stores.

[75th Ranger]

I don't really think 1/18 may die anytime soon and for 1/6 it will never die. Even the old GI JOES 12" are making a comeback at Walmarts.
12" never dies!!!

also our collectibles are not toys they are Adult Historically accurate Replicas!

HOOAH!

[aferguson]

I said it was doing better than ever in most respects. And it is. Aircraft have been quiet so far this year but there are plenty on the way. Hellcat, Me-262 (day and nightfighter), Dauntlass, Skyraider, 2x Phantoms, Mig 21, B-25 and probably more. Not bad, even if it takes a couple of years to see all those.

Armour and figures are starting to blossom, distribution is getting better now that 21c is back at TRU and BBI is at Target.

So yes, in most respects 1/18 is doing very well and is far from dead. Those that are being pessimistic should have been around about 5 years ago when 21c was the only kid in town AND they filed for Chapter 11.

Those were dark days...