Important must read, “ save German WWII amour

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:46 pm

Political correctness gone amuck.

Nothing will derail this hobby more then political correctness, well at least in the sense of German WWII military tanks and aircraft.
The only way to stop this is to petition the companies by starting an online petition, another noble ideas is to give a few dollars to the holocaust museum in DC for every sale…..History should not be white washed

More Developing...................

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:44 pm

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/create.html?z00m=99858

WWII history is trying to be rewritten, all the major discount stores and eBay are trying to prevent German WWII models and scale replicas of the machines that fought for Germany. This is political correctness gone amuck . For the most part this collecting is the start of rediscovery of the events of WWII it help reminds us why the war was fought and helps educate the younger generation, and the war.

That can help reverse this decision, it has to worded not to offend certain groups but at the same time not look like we just want NAZI TOYS. In other words it need elegant and at the same time get the message across.

I even called The holocaust museum to get their opinion on this subject and seeing if they could endorse these collectables along as there is some sort of education of the Nazis and maybe some sort of fund raising.
The fund raising world work like this every time you buy a Tiger 1 tank or anything German WWII the retail store or eBay would donate at least 1 dollar to the holocaust museum in DC or in Europe.

Guy and galls I think this might be the only way to keep the models and collectable toys of the German WWII armor and aircraft from not being made and sold here in the US.

So I would appreciate your input and your activity in the cause.

Once the petition is up we need to send it out over the inter net and let our voices be heard are you with me?

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:03 pm

Plus we have to word it in a way not to look like we support the NAZIS, at least I hope some of us don’t.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:08 pm

I hope I am not the only one who wants to stop this crazy political correctness , because if we don’t stop it where will it lead?? Will it lead to all was toys being banned on eBay or the major retailers. I hope not but who would have thought that TRU and EBay would ban replica of German WWII amour and aircraft.

I am done writing now it’s up to you.

tmanthegreat · Post by **tmanthegreat** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:54 pm

VMF115, just curious, but what brought on this thread?

You guys have hit on a very touchy subject, one that has especially been at the forefront of the Historical disciplines, let alone the toy industry. Those of you that want a good read about the nature of historical revisionism should take a look at Gary Nash's book History on Trial, which concerns revisionism and the writing of American history. It is a vexing problem and one that will not go away so long as we have a pluralistic society

I personally see no problem with the selling of German vehicles and aircraft at small and mass retailers, so long as the toys, or the seller, don't scream NAZI and THIRD REICH. Its when you start getting sets of SS Soldiers that I personally start to get worried. Those, however, have not gone to mass retail and are not known widely enough to cause offense.

Again, the companies that make this stuff and the people that sell it just have to be careful with how they market it. While writing this message, I did a cursory search on ebay with the term Ultimate Soldier German and found 105 listings under the bidding section and 183 listings under the Buy Now section - making a grand total of 288 21c German products in all scales. There are probably more. If Ebay was really the way some make it out to be, then none of this would be there. I don't think we have anything to worry about as of yet

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:26 pm

TTgreat,
I called EBay today and asked about those listing WW II German listings earlier this evening, there response was there are illegal listing and they should be pulled, but since the yare having their hands full with policing the auction site, they don’t have the man power.. The EBay rep said those that refuse to abide by the rules will be suspended and if they continue they will be banned,
So just because the yare one EBay does not mean they are legal.

STUKA · Post by **STUKA** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:28 pm

The first thing that came to my mind -
I don't see much opposition to 21st century German figures. By creating a petition - for the cause of more German tanks - you almost create opposition that was not there in the first place. There is a sudden Radar Blip that may create an ebay job - some lone 9-5 that patrols ebay searching for key words and deleating possible offending items.
I'm saying this as - sure - there are folk who feel offended by such toys - and apart from not buying what offended them they decide to send in a complaint. I don't think WM or target have problems with German armor - I see tons of the 1:72 and bigger all over the place.
But I really dont want 21st to have a more difficult time creating the Priest and PZ I for me.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:33 pm

STUKA I see your point, but where will we sell and buy our stuff if ebay does will not allow it....Yahoo...

besides the online stores.

FieroDude · Post by **FieroDude** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:49 pm

I still stand by the belief that banning something for political or religious (PC) reasons when that is not the purpose of the item, or when it negates a valid historical relevance, is idiotic. If that is the approach that ebay wishes to take, then all items with politcal or religious implications should be banned, just to be consistent. Oh, and while we are at it, no white sheets. I could understand banning a Hitler doll with a voice chip that shouts "Sieg Heil" and "Lebe das Reich", because that is meant expressly as a piece of propaganda (I would be rather offended by a talking Rush Limbaugh doll, while we're at it). But the logic of banning toys representing "the other side" of a war that shaped who we are as a nation and as a world is like denying it ever happened. Maybe ebay is now owned by the Iranians? My ancestors weren't too thrilled when the damn Europeans showed up, either (and talk about genocide)--so maybe we should ban anything related to the European conquest of the Americas? Ebay and other retailers need to get their heads out of their PC a$$e$ and deal with legitimate criminal activity. If something offends you, don't look for it. I doubt that Jerry Falwell spent his time doing google searches on "Paris Hilton porno"... then again... But you get my drift. I am all against racism and hate talk and hate crimes. I had the personal pleasure of beating the crap out of several skinheads when I lived in Germany because they didn't like the fact that girlfriend was Czech and some of my other friends were Turks. But if a company wants to fight it, fight it in an effective and legitimate way--don't rewrite history to hide the past. It's bad enough that I see people in their teens and 20's today that have absolutely no clue about WWII or the major causes and events.

Sorry for the rant, but I have spent about 20 of my 36 years fighting for free speech and to uphold the ideas behind the constitution of this country, and have watched both get flushed down the toilet over the past few years with increasing frequency as political correctness and paranoia take over.

Threetoughtrucks · Post by **Threetoughtrucks** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:45 pm

The key in banning our German toys is manpower. eBay will kill any listing and suspend any seller IF they receoive a complaint about the violation of their PC nonsence.

Thank the stars that eBay doesn't have the manpower to do the hunting.

The nutjob PC people will gladly report us but hopefully they might spend at least some of their time doing other PC stuff, like trying to pay illegals social security so they can retire on our dollar and Indians getting free land so the mob can help them built casinos......lots of important thing going on in the PC world. It's a hard job being a nutjob PC person....we should FEEL for them.

I have said before, I'm not crazy about Nazi toys, no matter what scale but banning a plane or a tank because it has the swatstikka thinngee on it is just pathetic...that's like blaming the car for a drunk crashing it.

What can be done? You tell me, I don't have a clue, but I can tell you this that no Holocast museum is going to sell German tanks in their gift shop, no matter what is the outcome of this eBay/TRU problem.

TTT

STUKA · Post by **STUKA** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:02 pm

The only thing that would make Ebay blink - besides losing the money they make off selling smut/porn
would be a signed petition showing over 10%-15% of their already paying customers would no longer use their services based on their ban of german tanks. militaria etc.
what would that be? 5-10 million petitioners? More?

If I need to sell Military items on the internet - it almost makes sense to build a small business and do it myself instead of paying ebay fees etc.
If I just want to buy sell trade some items here and there - well I have this forum.

Moth · Post by **Moth** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:16 pm

I still dont understand why the PC people think that if someone buys a model of a Tiger or Stuka, with or without a Swastica, they must support Nazi ideas.

Im not even going to go into the fact that the Swastica was used in alot of countrys, that do not support the Nazi idea.

What kills me even more is if you dont like it, dont buy it. That doesnt mean it should be banned from the shelfs.

I guess we whould be glad that the PC bastards didnt ban the Balkenkreuz or Eisernes Kruez. YET

Post by **aferguson** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:30 pm

the german/swastika vs pc correctness debate has been covered a zillion times on this forum. We don't need to rehash it again.

From what i can see German armour is doing quite well, with the recent halftracks released and the pakwagon, 88 and KT coming soon. It's allied armour that seems to be languishing right now. So let's start talking Priests, T-34's and Matildas folks...

Not that there isn't room for lots more german armour, cause there most certainly is...but allied armour seems to be getting left behind.

FieroDude · Post by **FieroDude** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:55 pm

I thought the theory was simply to get 5 Shermans for every Tiger? But I definitely have to agree: some variety would be nice. How about a Hellcat or some US artillery (and I do mean ARTILLERY)?

As far as the "political" discussion goes, it would just be nice if companies like ebay or TRU would actually listen to their consumers instead of politcal action commitees that are just trying to check off another box on their to do list in the effort to sanitize history. When a very small percentage dictates the rules for the majority with no regard to common sense, but only for the sake of politcal correctness, we are no longer in a democracy, but living in a dictatorship, oligarchy, theocracy, etc. In other words, our society will have become another Iraq (under Saddam), Taliban Afghanistan, or Iran. Kind of defeats the purpose of a democracy when money (the driving force behind PC) votes louder than the actual citizens.

pickelhaube · Post by **pickelhaube** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:43 am

I know that 21st is no longer for sale at TRU.Why did this go down?

Fierodude,
Are you telling me that one of the reasons were that they sold German models? Does anybody know all of the reasons. Have I been living under a rock for about 4 years? I would really like to know ALL of the reasons.
Matthew

WGP Klaus · Post by **WGP Klaus** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:39 am

This is just the beginning, it's really only a matter of time before they PC asshats start going after any collectible/toy that has anything to do with war. The anti-war folks have already started to talk about this, saying that war shouldn't be glorified by making toys for children to play with. Unfortunately the way this country is going right now, we need to make a stand or be prepared for the day when we may very well find ourselves with no companies making these items.

Post by **aferguson** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:58 am

anti war groups have been around, trying to squash military toys and model kits ever since i was a little kid.....they have accomplished very little in all that time. I wouldn't worry about them.

immeww2 · Post by **immeww2** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:18 am

If this same theory applies to toys then one has to wonder about all the battle simulation games available with the playstations, X-boxes, etc. Do they get banned as well?

STUKA · Post by **STUKA** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:17 am

If we really want to make changes in how people feel about "war toys" then we need to make noise in the public school area. This is where the PC crows do the most damage.

Get more involved in your children's schools, get involved in your local governments - city, county etc - that is where the change begins.

tosborne3 · Post by **tosborne3** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:39 am

Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

Rowsdower · Post by **Rowsdower** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:52 am

aferguson wrote:anti war groups have been around, trying to squash military toys and model kits ever since i was a little kid.....they have accomplished very little in all that time. I wouldn't worry about them.

I agree 100%

The same people crying about the evil German tanks probably have teens at home listening to violent rap music all day and emulating the "thug" lifestyle. But WWII German action figures are clearly more dangerous!

luftpanzer · Post by **luftpanzer** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:50 am

I would like to know who this group is that wants to ban toys of german tanks and planes.Maybe we could dig some dirt up on them, like unpaid taxes or shady financial records. Play their own game and have them banned. Oh no! You dont think they would try and ban World of war Craft!

Light.Inf.Scout · Post by **Light.Inf.Scout** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:08 pm

That group is a bunch of soccer moms with too much time on their hands. And they do hurt people...there WAS a hobby store in my town that sold dragon figures and diecast stuff , models etc. Then all of a sudden they didn't carry it anymore. When I asked why - he said he had too many complaints and trouble so now it was by order only and he tried selling other stuff. Within 1 year after that he was out of business.

MandaloreSC · Post by **MandaloreSC** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:10 pm

If you think this political correctness madness is a problem in the states, you have no idea how the situation is over here. On one hand, in worst case you can get into prison for having something with a swastika on it. But on the other hand its no problem to buy Revell Modelkits from german tanks in kid stores, and you can buy Codename Panzers oder Battlefield for your PC. I think this discussion about Nazis is sometimes just to hysterical. It seems my country has a problem to deal with its own history. I hope in 10 or 20 years this will change. Sometimes it's difficult to find out which collector is a Neonazi and which one is just interested in history.
I think it always is importent that everyone can tell his opinion. There should not be any subjects that people get hysterical about and you should not discuss about. Having discussions about history is importent, so this will never be forgotten.

What these guys did in WWII was real bad, but there is not only black and white on in this world. It seems almost every country had its dark age when people wanted to conquer the world. And so did germany with catastrophic consequences. But it should be okay to like the tanks, unforms, guns etc. without people calling you a Nazi.

tosborne3 · Post by **tosborne3** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:06 pm

MandaloreSC wrote:If you think this political correctness madness is a problem in the states, you have no idea how the situation is over here. On one hand, in worst case you can get into prison for having something with a swastika on it. But on the other hand its no problem to buy Revell Modelkits from german tanks in kid stores, and you can buy Codename Panzers oder Battlefield for your PC. I think this discussion about Nazis is sometimes just to hysterical. It seems my country has a problem to deal with its own history. I hope in 10 or 20 years this will change. Sometimes it's difficult to find out which collector is a Neonazi and which one is just interested in history.
I think it always is importent that everyone can tell his opinion. There should not be any subjects that people get hysterical about and you should not discuss about. Having discussions about history is importent, so this will never be forgotten.

What these guys did in WWII was real bad, but there is not only black and white on in this world. It seems almost every country had its dark age when people wanted to conquer the world. And so did germany with catastrophic consequences. But it should be okay to like the tanks, unforms, guns etc. without people calling you a Nazi.

I agree, We need to remember WW2 and the reasons that it was fought. Many of the younger people I talk to don't know squat about WW2 and that's really sad. These toys are a great reminder and a perfect learning tool for people to discuss WW2.