Came across this on the web and would be interested on hearing opinions and feedback from knowledgeable individuals, military people etc. It's a long read but interesting:
http://www.geocities.com/equipmentshop/m113combat.htm
Also this which is only partially about the M113 but more to do with strategies for surviving in Iraq:
http://www.geocities.com/paratroop2000/ ... arlist.htm
M113 in Iraq: Opinions wanted
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tmanthegreat
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nickname????
Never heard the M113 refered to as a "Gavin" before! Plus an "airborne" armored vehicle? Not exactly. Otherwise the old M113 series seems a much better choice than the Strykers, and cheaper than Bradleys.
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Morian Miner
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75th Ranger
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The Gavin is a modified M113....supped up.
A lot of the current M113, are supped up and have much better electronics, or a better TOW missile system, or even different weapon systems, and state of the art sights....
They can surely replace the role of the hummer due to their better armor...
Now a days they do medical evacuations underfire,
they patrol the area
and also act as transports and they perform wacth while assigned to roadblocks.
hope this works,
HOOAH!
They can surely replace the role of the hummer due to their better armor...
Now a days they do medical evacuations underfire,
they patrol the area
and also act as transports and they perform wacth while assigned to roadblocks.
hope this works,
HOOAH!
I couldn't get the first link to work, but had a good long read through the second link. He's mainly spouting common sense, but there are plenty of people who lack just that.
I strongly disagree when he says "The Army being a blind obedience and stupid outfit might place you in a situation where you have to drive in an unarmored HMMWV truck. I wouldn't. I would refuse, if you are DEAD nothing follows. If you are such a weak, co-dependant that you will not stickup for your own life, who will? What are they going to do to you? Send you to Iraq?" That is not only a quick way to end up in prison, but like the case last fall where a bunch of guys decided not to go out: just plain SCREWING YOUR BUDDY. If you refuse a mission someone else is going to have to pick up the slack for you. Sure your life is on the line, but is yours so much more important than the life of the guy who is going out there in your place? That ability to screw your buddy is much worse than the cowardice of refusing to go.
I spent a year in Baghdad, a driver in a combat engineer battalion (a unit that used the have 113's). Being a National Guard unit we deployed with canvas top hummees, and thats what we had the whole year.
September 5th 2003, early in the AM, I was driving the second hummvee in a convoy of about a dozen, inside Baghdad. The lead humvee was hit by an IED (improvised explosive device). There were 3 regular army soldiers in that humvee (an up-armored humvee, by the way), they got f----d. All three lived, but I'm sure none of them is in the army anymore; when you lose limbs, or eyes, or kidneys you tend to lose your career. F----d. When the explosion went off we were on a highway, traveling at highway speed, and with a good 40-50 meters between vehicles. The lead vehicle was going under an overpass, the bomb had been placed against the concrete support beam of the overpass, to ensure the full force of the explosion went only one direction. To me, in my mind, this is all one event: a very loud explosion, loud enough to still be ringing in my ears the next morning, the shockwave with it knocked the air out of my lungs, and it felt like someone just bitch-slapped me, both cheeks, open-handed-slapped me, I saw that lead humvee jump from the center, of three lanes, clear off the side of the road and into a ditch, and smoke, and debris falling everywhere. We rolled forward, through all that falling shit, and smoke, and fire. Past the damaged humvee, in order to establish a forward security point. As we rolled past that burning humvee I saw one of it's former occupants lying half in the road, and half in a ditch; I thought he was dead for sure. I was pulling forward security while first aid was being given to the three. At some point I realized who it was that had bitch slapped me; something from the initial explosion had flown back and hit my windshield. There was a hole clear through the saftey glass, and little glass shards had come into the cab. The medics back at camp pulled 30-40 little glass shards out of my face. I don't know what hit my windshield, I can't believe it didn't come through, I was lucky; it was dead center. I wasn't even wearing saftey glasses. Damn lucky. If your going to get a purple heart getting it easy/lucky is the only way to go.
I re-enlisted in Baghdad in '03. I have a couple more years on my enlistment, but I don't see getting out anytime soon. So of course I think the army needs to deploy more armor. I even like the idea of soldiers wearing riot control type shields on helmets.
I'm not saying anything about the war itself; right or wrong. Whatever you believe, it has to be right to protect our troops the best we possibly can.
I strongly disagree when he says "The Army being a blind obedience and stupid outfit might place you in a situation where you have to drive in an unarmored HMMWV truck. I wouldn't. I would refuse, if you are DEAD nothing follows. If you are such a weak, co-dependant that you will not stickup for your own life, who will? What are they going to do to you? Send you to Iraq?" That is not only a quick way to end up in prison, but like the case last fall where a bunch of guys decided not to go out: just plain SCREWING YOUR BUDDY. If you refuse a mission someone else is going to have to pick up the slack for you. Sure your life is on the line, but is yours so much more important than the life of the guy who is going out there in your place? That ability to screw your buddy is much worse than the cowardice of refusing to go.
I spent a year in Baghdad, a driver in a combat engineer battalion (a unit that used the have 113's). Being a National Guard unit we deployed with canvas top hummees, and thats what we had the whole year.
September 5th 2003, early in the AM, I was driving the second hummvee in a convoy of about a dozen, inside Baghdad. The lead humvee was hit by an IED (improvised explosive device). There were 3 regular army soldiers in that humvee (an up-armored humvee, by the way), they got f----d. All three lived, but I'm sure none of them is in the army anymore; when you lose limbs, or eyes, or kidneys you tend to lose your career. F----d. When the explosion went off we were on a highway, traveling at highway speed, and with a good 40-50 meters between vehicles. The lead vehicle was going under an overpass, the bomb had been placed against the concrete support beam of the overpass, to ensure the full force of the explosion went only one direction. To me, in my mind, this is all one event: a very loud explosion, loud enough to still be ringing in my ears the next morning, the shockwave with it knocked the air out of my lungs, and it felt like someone just bitch-slapped me, both cheeks, open-handed-slapped me, I saw that lead humvee jump from the center, of three lanes, clear off the side of the road and into a ditch, and smoke, and debris falling everywhere. We rolled forward, through all that falling shit, and smoke, and fire. Past the damaged humvee, in order to establish a forward security point. As we rolled past that burning humvee I saw one of it's former occupants lying half in the road, and half in a ditch; I thought he was dead for sure. I was pulling forward security while first aid was being given to the three. At some point I realized who it was that had bitch slapped me; something from the initial explosion had flown back and hit my windshield. There was a hole clear through the saftey glass, and little glass shards had come into the cab. The medics back at camp pulled 30-40 little glass shards out of my face. I don't know what hit my windshield, I can't believe it didn't come through, I was lucky; it was dead center. I wasn't even wearing saftey glasses. Damn lucky. If your going to get a purple heart getting it easy/lucky is the only way to go.
I re-enlisted in Baghdad in '03. I have a couple more years on my enlistment, but I don't see getting out anytime soon. So of course I think the army needs to deploy more armor. I even like the idea of soldiers wearing riot control type shields on helmets.
I'm not saying anything about the war itself; right or wrong. Whatever you believe, it has to be right to protect our troops the best we possibly can.
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Threetoughtrucks
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Don:
Your message was riveting. Glad to have you on the board. As a veteran of many convoys in VN, I know where you are speaking from. Bless you and safe home.
As to the M-113, fantastic read. Great pictures and information. I do know that our local NG armory has pulled the two M-113's they had as a memorial at the front of the building and they are back in service and the unit is in Iraq. Guess now I know why.
Anybody remember the flack about redesigning the Bradley from an improved M-113 to the monster it is today. What a waste. The military never changes, after all it's only money and the money they are wasting is not even their money, it's ours......
TTT
Your message was riveting. Glad to have you on the board. As a veteran of many convoys in VN, I know where you are speaking from. Bless you and safe home.
As to the M-113, fantastic read. Great pictures and information. I do know that our local NG armory has pulled the two M-113's they had as a memorial at the front of the building and they are back in service and the unit is in Iraq. Guess now I know why.
Anybody remember the flack about redesigning the Bradley from an improved M-113 to the monster it is today. What a waste. The military never changes, after all it's only money and the money they are wasting is not even their money, it's ours......
TTT
Sometimes I am the windshield, sometimes, I am the bug.
Don,
I just read your account while on convoy duty in Baghdad and am glad your OK... I pulled my tour in Iraq in a Marine Corps AAV and can relate to the uncertainty of knowing your vehicle will probably not survive a hit. Your correct in your assesment as well, orders are orders. The inward shame of refusing duty and failing your friends was bigger than the fear of dying or worse, being wounded... Good Luck with your career.
I just read your account while on convoy duty in Baghdad and am glad your OK... I pulled my tour in Iraq in a Marine Corps AAV and can relate to the uncertainty of knowing your vehicle will probably not survive a hit. Your correct in your assesment as well, orders are orders. The inward shame of refusing duty and failing your friends was bigger than the fear of dying or worse, being wounded... Good Luck with your career.