21C Trends?

Folkwulfe · Post by **Folkwulfe** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:40 pm

I'm sure most people are like me when it comes to 21C. They have made some "brassy" claims in the past only to have delay after delay place some serious blocks between 21C and their fan base. I for one have been patient and remain a 21C fan. I have had (and continue to have) my patience tested with the announcements of the new forthcoming releases. Here's the rub....another BB I visit alot has a short remark in there about a certain 21C rep who was overheard at a toyshow talking about not-too-distant releases in 21C's 1/32nd aircraft model line. Now not the pre-built and painted, but their actual model kit line. Get this...they are releasing(by late '07 as stated) 1/32nd kits of the He-111, Ju-88, and Do-17 bombers in what they are calling the "Axis Bombers of the Battle of Britain Series". Gee....with 1/32nd kits coming (maybe) soon, could there be 1/18th future written in there somewhere? Certainly, if the Phantom II is a success (give me a break....they will "fly" off the shelves) what might those developers minds be thinking???

FieroDude · Post by **FieroDude** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:56 pm

First off, I will believe it when I see it. The model kit line-up hasn't been around long enough to get a real feeling for how well they sell. In some stores, they fly off the shelves, and in others, they sit. But I have a hard time seeing 21st launching the kits without a pre-built version, as well. On the other hand, there does seem to be a bigger push towards 1/32, which makes sense. Simply put, Walmart earns more per square foot of shelf space off 1/32. It typically moves faster due to the lower price point, and you can fit as many as 8 $15 1/32 planes in the same space as a single 1/18 plane--meaning 3x more revenue. No clue what the difference in margin per piece is, but I suspect it's still in 1/32 favor.
If anything, I worry that if there is an increased push towards 1/32, with increasingly impressive releases, it will be at the long term cost of 1/18. However, I think as long as Admiral and bbi stay in the 1/18 market, 21st will remain active, simply to stay in the mix. Time will tell. Right now, it sounds like there is an impressive year ahead of us for 1/18--I hope this continues to be true, and not just because of market pressures from the competition.

Threetoughtrucks · Post by **Threetoughtrucks** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:56 am

Although I have seen far too many statements that something will "fly off the shelves" if produced when the writer is obviously talking about something the writer likes or wants.

I see 21C shifting their production trying new stuff in scales or even kits. 21C, like any other business is always looking for something that "clicks".

I personally will always prefer prebuilt and painted but I can see 1/18 and 1/32 shifting into kits, if that is want customers want. There is a certain amount of interest in having every item you assemble painted your custom colors. Decals exist now for our toys, that could be expanded quite easy.

On another thread on a 1/6 board in a discussion of interest in a new metal White half-track (proposed $500-600 range) a guy pops up and says he is in a 1/6 RC group and they would be very much interested in this new half-track. My point is, guys normally not interested in what you like can spill over into new areas with alot of people not into what you like can increase sales in an area you want. Kit people would increase sales in our 1/18 or 1/32 and might make 21C happy in the end.

You can't stay rigid in business, you must "go with the flow".

21C dumped 1/6 by "going with the flow". I can see them doing the same with 1/18, even 1/32 prebuilt. Business is business. Will I like it, hell no.

The 1/6 world would not be what it is today without the dozens of 21C stuff produced in big numbers at reasonable prices......Stuart, WSC, CC, Jeeps, Ketts,Schwimmerwagons and motorcycles, even a helo. Things change and 21C and 1/6 parted ways. It's too bad. Is 1/18 prebuilt scheduled for the same, maybe not this year, but it sure is possible.

TTT

ostketten · Post by **ostketten** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:34 am

First off, I will believe it when I see it.

I agree. All three of those models mentioned in the Battle of Britain series would likely be very good sellers in pre-built and painted form, so it seems crazy to me that they would be available only in kit form.

The kits are sort of "the new kid on the block" in the 21C product line, and I believe 21st understands that most of their customers are not in to kit building, and that's why they buy their models in the first place.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:15 am

ostketten wrote:
First off, I will believe it when I see it.
I agree. All three of those models mentioned in the Battle of Britain series would likely be very good sellers in pre-built and painted form, so it seems crazy to me that they would be available only in kit form. The kits are sort of "the new kid on the block" in the 21C product line, and I believe 21st understands that most of their customers are not in to kit building, and that's why they buy their models in the first place.

I agree

Rowsdower · Post by **Rowsdower** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:37 pm

IMO with these new, huge, expensive aircraft, 21st seems to be shifting their focus from the average collector to the hardcore collector who can justify spending $100+ on an aircraft and who actually has room for it.

As was mentioned earlier, WM loves 32x because they can pack so much more of it in the same amount of shelf space one 1:18 plane takes up. Also, the 32x line offers a lot more armor and constantly has new product. It's low price and small size make it a hit. It's all about profit for both 21st and WM which I can understand.

Do you notice that wet Earth smell? Its coming from the grave being dug for 1:18.

Folkwulfe · Post by **Folkwulfe** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:25 pm

While I agree with most of the analagies, I must protest that the death of 1/18th scale aircraft is forthcoming. I think that most of the most popular aircraft (for the general collecting public) has been done, but the hard core collector like us on this BB want more. WM has their marketing plan and 21C has theirs as well. I think it's just a matter of subject material that will be successfull enough to offset the cost of prototypes, development, and production. Just good business sense. The trend of model kits is timeless and I would think of as a natural progression since 21C has been received fairly well by the modeling community. They have, thus far, produced some good kits of not-too-overdone subjects and subclasses of popular aircraft that lend themselves well to modification and detailing. I know, I have two in the works on the bench right now. However, with all of that said, I think there is still a very good following for the pre-built and painted 1/18th scale models....and I hope we all are still here ten years from now excitedly awaiting the NEXT releases.

blurx7 · Post by **blurx7** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:45 pm

Folkwulfe wrote:....another BB I visit alot has a short remark in there about a certain 21C rep who was overheard at a toyshow talking ...

If it was a sales rep trying to woo a new client/buyer you can bet he was spinning out as pretty a story as possible based on his "read" of the prospective client's likes/dislikes. Every salesperson will do the same thing regarding "future product" Ever buy a new or used car from a salesman?
Wait and see seems the best attitude.

scbvideoboy · Post by **scbvideoboy** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:39 pm

I don't understand why WM get 1 or maybe 2 cases of new stuff then bam it's gone and no restock until the NEXT new stuff.

with 9 new 1/18 items mentioned as "on the way" I disagree about 1/18 being dead.

1/18 has a major fan diecast collectible base. 21C got into 1/32 to undercut the other guys...if I was going to buy 1/32 I'd buy the other guys stuff.

I regret not buying a few 1/6 items wayback when, but just don't have room for 1/6 stuff.

Don't understand why AT didn't do 1/32 tanks...

Don't understand why 21C did a 1/9 scale RC tank? I have tons of 1/9 scale items to work with that, don't you?

Don't understand why Tamiya did a 1/14 scale rc truck line when they have 1/16 tanks and 1/12 F-1 cars, they should have done a 1/16 rc truck tank hauler duh...just thought I throw that in there.

BBI needs to step up... get that P-51B going

DH

Rowsdower · Post by **Rowsdower** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:59 pm

scbvideoboy wrote:I don't understand why WM get 1 or maybe 2 cases of new stuff then bam it's gone and no restock until the NEXT new stuff.

Same question I ask. I don't think that 1:18 in general is dead, what I mean is that WM certainly appears to be phasing XD out. As you also noted, once the first shipment of a new item is gone, it's never restocked. The WM in my AO have even exhausted their supplies of ME-109's, BoBII figures and Japanese Marines. All the pegs are empty, all the spaces for vehicles are empty. I talked to a toy manager in one WM here who said they were planning on expanding the 32X into the empty XD area because they are losing money with empty shelves! Hell there are about 30 1/6 weapon packs hanging in there now. Where the heck did those come from?

I can see 21st dropping "typical" XD eand going with aircraft like the B-25 and F-4. Big, highly detailed and expensive. If they even show up in WM, will they sell? I mean besides us collectors, will little Johnny be able to talk his mommy into shelling out big bucks for a huge aircraft? They had to drop the Avengers to $30 to move them in my AO.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a 1:18 and XD fan, going way back to my first GI Joe in 1984 but I can't deny that I've never collected anything where it is so frustrating/difficult/impossible to get a hold of the stuff and I collect GI Joes, Transformers, HO trains and Japanese anime toys.

tko211 · Post by **tko211** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:04 pm

WM is a strange animal. Trying to make sense of the system is enough to drive anyone crazy. I sure would like to have other stores to drive to get my military fix.

Rowsdower · Post by **Rowsdower** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:08 pm

tko211 wrote:WM is a strange animal. Trying to make sense of the system is enough to drive anyone crazy. I sure would like to have other stores to drive to get my military fix.

Agreed. I always hope for the day I come on here and see "21st Makes Deal with TRU!" but that's not going to happen since I'm sure WM has some legal tricks up their sleeve. I hate WM. Damn their low prices and convienance!!

pickelhaube · Post by **pickelhaube** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:52 pm

How many Wal-marts are they? How much XD would go to each if they divide it evanly?

2-3 each? At least we would have a chance to get some

FieroDude · Post by **FieroDude** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:03 pm

Actually, TKO, the guys bring up an interesting point. I know Target has some 21st stuff on their site, and I think even K-mart has some once upon a time (although I may be recalling random 1/6 bbi appearances). And I know 21st sells through a few smaller hobby chains and mom and pop shops, as well as on-line. Does Walmart have 21st locked into an exclusive for mass discount store distribution? Could a Target, Meijer, TRU, or Sears/K-mart carry 21st if they wanted? Or do they simply not carry it because going up against Walmart isn't worth the shelf-space for the margin they can get?

warhawker · Post by **warhawker** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:52 am

WM-SUCKS! WM-SUCKS!
Come on everybody join in!
WM-SUCKS! WM-SUCKS!

There I feel a little better after a protest.

tmanthegreat · Post by **tmanthegreat** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:34 am

We know that TRU can still carry 21c if they want to - remember the "Merril's Maruaders" sets? Only thing is that at TRU, there can be no explicitly German items sold

Tinman · Post by **Tinman** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:54 am

JC Penney actually had a few XD items online a couple of years ago. Don't think they do now.

FieroDude · Post by **FieroDude** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:55 am

tmanthegreat wrote:We know that TRU can still carry 21c if they want to - remember the "Merril's Maruaders" sets? Only thing is that at TRU, there can be no explicitly German items sold

I am wondering if that may change/have changed under the new ownership. Only time will tell. I think the bigger problem is that TRU doesn't want to fight WM on price--they do on enough other stuff already. At least with bbi they can get away with charging MSRP.

tkjaer21 · Post by **tkjaer21** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:00 am

I know that at the 11 Wal-Mart Supercenters in my 35 mile radius of OKC. There are only BOB Tankers and MB Drivers left (with the exception of a couple of Imperial Marines). I have even looked at the flow charts for the Isles that they have velcrowed to the toy section and there is no space indicated for the 1:18 scale vehicles nor planes. Only two pegs for the figures. It appears that the future in my area is only 1:32 armor and planes, 1:72 planes, and 1:144 planes and tanks, and the 1:32 models in the model isle. Maybe this is the end for 1:18th as there are no armor and planes section listed at the current season. It is quite depressing and frustrating. I really with that Hobbytown would get this stuff in. A major Wal-Mart distributor store is abot 70 miles south of us. We used to be among the first in the country to receive the new stuff, now it appears we may not see it at all. The last thing that we had received first were the Pak-40 assortment back in October or November. Now it is like we are in Long Island as they never get anything new either. On a side note, a very small town in NE Oklahoma received the new figs.

Rowsdower · Post by **Rowsdower** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:40 am

tkjaer21 wrote:I have even looked at the flow charts for the Isles that they have velcrowed to the toy section and there is no space indicated for the 1:18 scale vehicles nor planes. Only two pegs for the figures. It appears that the future in my area is only 1:32 armor and planes, 1:72 planes, and 1:144 planes and tanks, and the 1:32 models in the model isle. Maybe this is the end for 1:18th as there are no armor and planes section listed at the current season.

I took a look at those charts myself at a few stores that had them and they are exactly the same. Just the two figure pegs which have been empty for a long time anyhow. I'm wondering if the phase out of 1:18 is just in certain areas, like based on sales? Then again, maybe the areas with a lot of XD still on the shelves just haven't sold off their remaining stock yet. Well, just like tkjaer I think the future is 32x and smaller in my AO.

sarge · Post by **sarge** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:59 pm

scbvideoboy wrote:I don't understand why WM get 1 or maybe 2 cases of new stuff then bam it's gone and no restock until the NEXT new stuff.

with 9 new 1/18 items mentioned as "on the way" I disagree about 1/18 being dead.

1/18 has a major fan diecast collectible base. 21C got into 1/32 to undercut the other guys...if I was going to buy 1/32 I'd buy the other guys stuff.

I regret not buying a few 1/6 items wayback when, but just don't have room for 1/6 stuff.

Don't understand why AT didn't do 1/32 tanks...

Don't understand why 21C did a 1/9 scale RC tank? I have tons of 1/9 scale items to work with that, don't you?

Don't understand why Tamiya did a 1/14 scale rc truck line when they have 1/16 tanks and 1/12 F-1 cars, they should have done a 1/16 rc truck tank hauler duh...just thought I throw that in there.

BBI needs to step up... get that P-51B going

DH

It might be the case of 21C not having enough stock to distribute to all WMs' I haven't seen the first NEW 1/32 scale plane yet in the nine stores in my area. But my son who lives in Columbia SC. 90 miles away just picked me up a 1/32 Corsair and the 1/18th Tiger striped Mig which was never down here. Wm has a funny way of distribution. My son Calls me and asks if that was the Mig I was looking for as there was 6 on the shelves. I tell him to pick me up one. He goes back the next day and gets the last one. That was last week, he calls me yesterday and tells me there are nine more on the shelves today. Wonder where they came from? Still don't have beans for a selection in this area except left over Xmas.

Speaking of different scales, on one of these threads (Wild fire toys) is tossing around the idea of coming out in 1/12 scale. One of the items is a waterline U boat. I'm telling the wife this morning thats the next thing I want for my war room and go to great lengths to explain the difference in the scales. I think she was kinda lost in the woods untill I mentioned the 18 FT scale length on the sub. She got the idea real quick like "Where in the he** are you going to put that"? I sure like to see something like that but dunno if I'd buy it. Oh yeah, They said it comes apart for easy storage.

I sure hope 1/18th isn't dead I think it's just the right scale. As for the 21C 1/32nd scale model kits, those we do have but their the same ones as the premade planes.
You all have a good one. Sarge

sarge · Post by **sarge** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:03 am

Folkwulfe wrote:I'm sure most people are like me when it comes to 21C. They have made some "brassy" claims in the past only to have delay after delay place some serious blocks between 21C and their fan base. I for one have been patient and remain a 21C fan. I have had (and continue to have) my patience tested with the announcements of the new forthcoming releases. Here's the rub....another BB I visit alot has a short remark in there about a certain 21C rep who was overheard at a toyshow talking about not-too-distant releases in 21C's 1/32nd aircraft model line. Now not the pre-built and painted, but their actual model kit line. Get this...they are releasing(by late '07 as stated) 1/32nd kits of the He-111, Ju-88, and Do-17 bombers in what they are calling the "Axis Bombers of the Battle of Britain Series". Gee....with 1/32nd kits coming (maybe) soon, could there be 1/18th future written in there somewhere? Certainly, if the Phantom II is a success (give me a break....they will "fly" off the shelves) what might those developers minds be thinking???

One thing about 21C, they talk a good talk it's the production that hurts them. What ever happened to their Zero, ME 262 & Bush Avenger? Now their talking about the B-25, F-4 & Mig 21. Which one will be out first and in what year? There's enough here to keep em busy for awhile.

Rowsdower · Post by **Rowsdower** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:03 pm

If 21st simply can't produce enough toys, then why do keep introducing new scales and products, IMO they are spreading themselves too thin. What happened to the Pak wagen? It just dropped off the radar. Plus as was said above, they are unveiling all these new aircraft when the last set of aircraft aren't even being produced yet. I think they are a small company who makes a great product, but I think they are getting themselves in WAY over their heads.

I have a bad feeling the B-25 is going to hurt 21st bad. Too huge and too expensive for everyone but the hardcore collector. There must be a fortune going into designing and tooling for this plane. If it doesn't sell that can't be good. If its online only then it might make some profit but I just can't see it selling at WM.

CW4USARMY · Post by **CW4USARMY** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:44 pm

Rowsdower wrote:If 21st simply can't produce enough toys, then why do keep introducing new scales and products, IMO they are spreading themselves too thin. What happened to the Pak wagen? It just dropped off the radar. Plus as was said above, they are unvailing all these new aircraft when the last set of aircraft aren't even being produced yet. I think they are a small company who makes a great product, but I think they are getting themselves in WAY over their heads.

I have a bad feeling the B-25 is going to hurt 21st bad. Too huge and too expensive for everyone but the hardcore collector. There must be a fortune going into designing and tooling for this plane. If it doesn't sell that can't be good. If its online only then it might make some profit but I just can't see it selling at WM.

Shhhhhhhhhhh! Dont tell anyone until after the B-25 is at retail

Rowsdower · Post by **Rowsdower** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:30 pm

CW4USARMY wrote:Shhhhhhhhhhh! Dont tell anyone until after the B-25 is at retail

OK. I will put on my optimist hat back on for a little longer.

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21C Trends?

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