Small Scale Military Headquarters

On the DWK Spitfire fuselage marking, the markings do not match up on either side, is this correct? The roundels do not match up, as I can understand how the letters wouldnt, but I thought the roundels were always suppose to line up on both sides.

Not necessarily....the roundels often lined up but not always. Not sure in the case of DW K but i suspect it's right. Roy is usually on the ball with this stuff. My only issue with them is that the grey on the letters is a bit too dark.

Well after doing a little research and talking to a few folks who build aircraft, particuarly British WW2 stuff. 21st got DWK wrong.
The roundels are suppose to line up on the fuselage, and the letters were suppose to be in correct order on both port and starbard sides.
I personally believe that 21st got it wrong too. but again,period photos would help here.

[/img]http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoserver ... 4_full.jpg
[img]http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoserver ... 0_full.jpg


Hope these work I dont know how to post pictures[/img]

There you go




Just a little editing - you got the scripting right, but needed to get the symbols at the ends of each

My NKK lines up properly - are you saying the "D" is under the canopy on both sides of the AC on the 21C DWK version or just that the roundels don't line up? Or both?

Yes, on the 21st C model, the roundels on the fuselage on the DWK 610 squadron Spit do not line up. They got this wrong. I even contacted the Royal Airforce museum and specifically asked them the same question, and the roundels on the fuselage ALWAYS were suppose to line up. 21st GOT IT WRONG. I found another pic last night and will try to post of I think DW T showing the right side of the fuselage and based on that photograph, the roundel on that side you can see in accordance to the radio mast that the other side roundel would line up as well. I am going to try and find that pic ASAP......

Another interesting note is that DWT had slightly smaller fuselage roundels. but still if you base the roundels on where the antenna mast is you will see that the roundels are indeed suppose to line up.
Again, I dont know how to post pictures but heres the link.

Boy good topic! Thats why I stay with my tried and true U.S fighter the P-51 Mustang and F4U Corsair when collecting 1/18th. At least they get these right or do they? lol.

Interesting that they should line up and don't. I guess that makes the NKK the most accurate of the lot being the right scheme for the right model AC and no discernable mistakes.
I haven't heard of any flaws with the new 21C Mustang schemes or the Bunker Hill Corsair so you may be in the clear MM... I think as they try to incorporate more schemes sometimes the model # will not line up with the paint job like with the 4Q and the Shark P-38. But I think the Haleakala P-38, Putt-Putt & Pudgy are pretty spot on so you can get them with confidence too. The Bubbletops I think also, though am not sure. Don't be scared to branch out - just be sure to pick the one that is most accurate if you are a stickler.

There is a fellow here in Michigan who IMO, is the last word in detail and accuracy. His name is Guillermo Rojas-Bazan. His models are the result of thousand of hours of study, research, investigation and, he scratch builds the aircraft from aluminum. He did a DWK Spitfire in 1/16th scale….check it out. and see if his line up.

http://www.rojasbazan.com/SupermarineSpitfire.htm

Oh my Gawd- that is freaking amazing...... no insults to egos big and small, but this guy may about the best thats' ever been- damn.

The tears are flowing those are just beautiful
Todd

Yoxford,
Yes i have seen his work. The roundels on the fuselage certainly do line up on his model. However, DWK did not have roundels on the undersides of the wings.Now I dont know if later perhaps if the aircraft got roundels after the BoB, but I know during the battle it had none.
But as far as the roundels go on the fuselage sides, they do indeed line up.
Again,--21st got it wrong.

Yoxford,
Yes i have seen his work. The roundels on the fuselage certainly do line up on his model. However, DWK did not have roundels on the undersides of the wings.Now I dont know if later perhaps if the aircraft got roundels after the BoB, but I know during the battle it had none.
But as far as the roundels go on the fuselage sides, they do indeed line up.
Again,--21st got it wrong.

I guess I got alot of work ahead of me, I am going to totally revamp my DWK Spit with new paint and correct DWK markings. Now I just got to find a good person who makes decals,otherwise I will have to stencil them, (what a headache)

Wow this is interesting stuff. I thought that the DWK Spit was the most accurate in 21st's Spitfire line up. Boy was I wrong and I'm glad I made up my mind to pass on it. The bottom line is mistakes are made in this buisness. Look at BBI for instance. Their decals on their Mustang releases look more 1/24th scale then 1/18th and they forgot to put the name "Old Crow" on the left side of the cowling with their last Mustang release. Mistakes are made gentlemen and not everyones perfect.

I have to be honest here guys and thats that the only perfect replica of a WW 2 fighter I've seen so far is Merit Int's 1/24th P-51 series. No they dont have the many working features of their big 1/18th counter parts but they are near perfect in detail and paint work. So far that is..........I havent had the chance to see their ME-109's yet but I hear those are very good too. I might have to scale down in size if they keep it up

Yoxford wrote:There is a fellow here in Michigan who IMO, is the last word in detail and accuracy. His name is Guillermo Rojas-Bazan. His models are the result of thousand of hours of study, research, investigation and, he scratch builds the aircraft from aluminum. He did a DWK Spitfire in 1/16th scale….check it out. and see if his line up.

http://www.rojasbazan.com/SupermarineSpitfire.htm

Yoxford showed me this site awhile ago and I saved it because Guillermo Rojas-Bazan does wonderful work. Its because of this man that I'm really thinking about doing some super detailing of my 1/18th Marines Dream Corsair. His Mustangs and Corsair's are awsome and his B-17? Its out of this freakin world!!!!! I only wish I had the money to get at least one those magnificent planes thats for sure. If you want some super detailing ideas look no further then Guillermo Rojas-Bazan's website.

Well I gotta say you guys asked for this!....

Just kidding. I say that just because I have had many side talks with Roy about the RAF and specifically the DWK spit. Roy still says that DWK to this day is one of his favorite airplanes and schemes of the entire 21st collection. In his words he has told me before that this is the one that China got 100% on the money in terms of the color shades, the size and placement for all the paint on the entire aircraft. More than the NKK or ZPA spit this one is indeed spot on.

So Roy asked if wouldn't mind passing along his comments to everyone. I think you will find it interesting and informative.
-TKO-


Hi Guys,

I have read with interest this thread over the last few days, but I have been too busy to respond. So many new products in the pipeline for spring 2007! You guys are gonna be really surprised on some of the new stuff. Subjects you may have thought you would never see are in various stages of development and production.

Anyways, on the subject of the 610 Squadron Spitfire Mk. I, I am kind of surprised that it took this long for someone to question the accuracy of the markings. First of all, you must understand that the time period between 1939 and 1941 was one of numerous experimental color schemes applied to Fighter Command aircraft, particularly Spitfires and Hurricanes. As painted, DW-K represents a time when oversized markings were being applied to RAF fighters, probably in attempt to reduce the incidence of friendly fire accidents. Inexperienced pilots at this point in the airwar tended to be a little trigger happy, so giant roundels and codes were applied in an attempt to stop this from happening.

That said, while it is true that roundel locations were specifically called out in Ministry documents, the Battle of Britain was in full swing, and ground crews were overworked as it was. Study of the 4 or 5 aircraft from 610 Squadron that were photographed at that time show that there were variations from aircraft to aircraft in the applications of roundels and codes. When I painted the master for DW-K a few years back, I was very surprised to find out that with the roundels aligned (position of port roundel is verified by photographs) the codes would not fit on the starboard side. I started searching all reference material I had, but could not find a photo of DW-K form the starboard side. I contacted a few of the aviation historians I know with a specialty in RAF subjects. A well known aviation author friend of mine sent me a photograph of DW-K sitting on an airfield photographed from the port side. Careful measurements revealed that the starboard roundel was painted more than a foot ahead of the port one. The codes simply will not fit any other way. This is not really that surprising. I believe that the roundels were newly painted at the same time the codes were, as the roundels are non standard. Another point of interest is that the proportions between the two roundels differ slightly from port to starboard.

As to the code colors. DW-K probably has the most accurately colored codes of the first 3 Spitfires. The codes were painted RAF Medium Sea Grey (British differentiate between gray and grey, grey being gray with a warm or cool cast) and were matched to color chips from official RAF sources. When fighters were repainted into the Dark Green and Ocean Grey color scheme, code colors went over to Sky Type S. NK-K actually has codes that are a little too light grey in color. My dad was in the RAF. He flew Lancasters. RAF aircraft have always been a personal passion of mine, and I have been researching the subject for many years.

I hope you found this information interesting, and it helps you enjoy your Spitfires even more.

We will be announcing our next 1/18th airplane in the next month or so. I think you will be happy with the subject. More are in the pipeline, and I guarantee many of you (can’t make everybody happy!) will be very excited about the news!

Happy collecting.

Roy

There you go...Aferg called it...

Well I think that settles it for me. If Roy says its so its so! I have all the confidence in the world in Roy and I wont question him at all.

Thanks Roy for commenting on the DWK Spit. I look forward to the next plane on the menue from 21st.

MightyMustang wrote:I have all the confidence in the world in Roy and I wont question him at all.

I hope that's only the case for the accuracy of 21c products and not life-or-death matters

tmanthegreat wrote:

MightyMustang wrote:I have all the confidence in the world in Roy and I wont question him at all.

I hope that's only the case for the accuracy of 21c products and not life-or-death matters

LOL, rest assured tman its only for the case of accuracy of 21st products and thats it!

Roy also had this to add to the conversation as he thought more about the DWK markings...

Hi again guys,

I just wanted to follow up a little on my comments, then its back to the grindstone. I went back and refreshed my memory by comparing the photos and the production scheme. The roundel on the starboard side of the fuselage was staggered to the front on the real aircraft, but it was probably more like 8 to 10 inches (not over a foot as I previously stated). While the paint master, which was done on a smaller scale plastic model, had very accurate staggered placement of the roundels, the factory staggered the roundel forward a little bit more in order to fit the artwork of the codes. This was the result of small dimensional differences between the model and the production airplane.

So, while there may be a little more mismatch of the fuselage roundels than there should technically be, it accurately represents the non-standard oversized markings that were so representative of the Spitfires at Biggin Hill and other Fighter Command airfields during those desperate days.

Another interesting side note: Tamiya's 1/48th Spitfire Mk. I kit has markings for DW-K's sister ship marked DW-O, but they show it incorrectly to have upperwing roundels considerably smaller than the standard 56" marking carried by Spitfires for most of the war. The good news is that Tamiya also include the correct sized roundels for another subject on the decal sheet.

When it comes to researching schemes, it is not a good idea to base conclusions on models, no matter how beautifully built they are. Color profiles and decals sheets may be very attractive, but many are filled with errors. Whenever possible, we use period photos (NOT Warbirds!) to try and get the markings as accurate as possible.

Happy collecting! Roy

Roy sets the record straight! I like that. I put my order in at Historic Aviation and will be picking up my Spit tomorrow.

I can sence that the DWK Spitfire is one of Roys favorites and has been a favorite of mine for some time. But I was just to stupid to go and pick one up right away . Well come tomorrow that will be corrected.

Thanks again Roy for coming on the board and giving us your insights. Its very much appreciated.

Well I finally did it. I placed my order with Bad Cat Toys and bought the DWK Spit! Thank god, its about time! I was going to order it from Historic Aviation but I decided to stick with Bad Cat because they are my favorite when it comes to ordering my 1/18th Fighter Planes.

Lucky I ordered it today because I bought the LAST one. So this must be a very popular Spit indeed.

I'm going to give my veiws of it when I get mine because its a thing I like to do when I get something new.

Should be here by Monday.