Taking a que from the Sources section. If the only way to get large jets and bombers were to cutback on features to make these more affordable what feature would have to be sacrificed to do so? I'm not including retracting gear or opening canopy because I think everyone wants those however if you don't, write in and tell us why or why not. This might be input that the manufacturers can use.
Personally I don't feel the need for movable control surfaces. I just display mine pretty much but I think flaps are needed for both air and ground display. Since I'm a fairly good painter and modeler I could even live with a "roll your own" aircraft.
But I definately don't want to see detail sacrificed for a lower price.
Price vs. Functionality what items are must haves?
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Jericoeagle1
- Officer - Major
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Price vs. Functionality what items are must haves?
A little song, A little dance, A little seltzer down your pants!~~~Chuckles the Clown.
I seriously don’t think we should regress on detail unless it means we can get better, larger aircraft. I say leave it be unless you’re trying to design an affordable bomber or large scale modern jet. I can’t imagine buying another first series P-51 after both bbi and 21st have made much better planes since.
xd
If someone made a 1/18 B-17, I could live without all of the movable control surfaces or just one figure with it. I would want it to have bombbay doors that opened and some bombs in it though.
A working ball turret and all other gun positions would be a plus.
A working ball turret and all other gun positions would be a plus.
Given the quality of decals you can have made, the relatively low-cost of decent airbrushes and the quality masking products that are out there, a "plain plane" would result in incremental sales for a number of reasons:
First, modelers would purchase additional units and often in multiples when the product first became available.
Second, the physical quality of late is sufficient to allow more determined detailers the opportunity to do some serious customization - i.e., removing the dorsal fin on the P-51 for some early (N5) versions or even making a razor-back Mustang. But doing that to an already painted aircraft is counter-intuitive if you mentally factor in the cost of painting and marking it in the retail price.
Thirdly, it would have little or no negative impact on non-modeler buyer/collector purchases. Those who buy and aren't particularly concerned with what can be an extreme sense of reality (rivet counting comes to mind as the term) will still buy the planes in the markings even though they may not even know much about the machine or the pilots.
And finally, there would be a market developed around 1:18 adaptations, markings, features, etc.
Just my two cents worth.
First, modelers would purchase additional units and often in multiples when the product first became available.
Second, the physical quality of late is sufficient to allow more determined detailers the opportunity to do some serious customization - i.e., removing the dorsal fin on the P-51 for some early (N5) versions or even making a razor-back Mustang. But doing that to an already painted aircraft is counter-intuitive if you mentally factor in the cost of painting and marking it in the retail price.
Thirdly, it would have little or no negative impact on non-modeler buyer/collector purchases. Those who buy and aren't particularly concerned with what can be an extreme sense of reality (rivet counting comes to mind as the term) will still buy the planes in the markings even though they may not even know much about the machine or the pilots.
And finally, there would be a market developed around 1:18 adaptations, markings, features, etc.
Just my two cents worth.
detail
Could not agree more. We say we would sacrifice but then we would point out all the problems...look, if 21C can make Starfighter $40 they sure as hell could do an F4 at $80. And if bbi could do an F-16 at $80 then $100 should cover an A-10 (25% higher price). And since detail has only been improving why now would we want less? Especially something like a bomber and no crew - terrible! You going to have an empty turret or 3? One guy in the cockpit!?toyktdlgh wrote:I seriously don’t think we should regress on detail unless it means we can get better, larger aircraft. I say leave it be unless you’re trying to design an affordable bomber or large scale modern jet. I can’t imagine buying another first series P-51 after both bbi and 21st have made much better planes since.
What makes these things is that they are painted, ready to go with tons of detail. To throw that out the window just to push for more AC is crazy imo. With due time, we will get anything the market will bear.
I have a hard time believing that the general public would still buy as many "plain Jane" airplanes as they would highly detailed planes. I think that’s seriously underestimating the buying market on these planes. Most people buy them because of their detail, not their markings. A cool paint scheme may draw them to the shelf but if it looks like a cheap piece of crap that’s where it will stay, right on the shelf. I don’t know half what others on this board know about individual aircraft but I do know a detailed model when I see one and that’s one I want to take home. I think if companies start cheapening them up then it will be a real loss to the hobby. As I mentioned before, if you want to loose a few detailed here and their to produce a large plane or something that could only be affordable with lower detail, then go for it but for the most part I think the detail should stay!
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Morian Miner
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I say the general public, on the large planes, doesn't notice the detail or lack of at all. When my friends come over and see my planes on the walls of the junkroom, they don't notice if the flaps move - the general comment I get is "HOLY SH$#@#$ THAT IS SWEET?!?!?!"
Take the BBI Zero for example. How much effort did they put into the cockpit, and once you install it you can't see most of it. Think about how many molds, manufacturing steps, and paint processes went into something you really never see. I'd rather that effort go into figuring out how to make a decent A-10 wing that doesnt' sag while on display, or landing gears that collapse.
Take the BBI Zero for example. How much effort did they put into the cockpit, and once you install it you can't see most of it. Think about how many molds, manufacturing steps, and paint processes went into something you really never see. I'd rather that effort go into figuring out how to make a decent A-10 wing that doesnt' sag while on display, or landing gears that collapse.
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Quixote511
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Threetoughtrucks
- Officer - Brigadier General
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Detail is the name of our game. Detail is the reason we are collecting 21C. They made us expect their beautiful pieces and the detail. We sure scream if they release something we are not happy with, due to lack of realistic features.
Detail is the reason 1/6 guys went from Hasbro GI Joe guys up to 21C guys and are now buying Dragon and DID. It forced 21C to raise the bar for the 21C figures and they are slowly getting better.
Detail, detail and more detail is what we want and we will pay for it. Who among us wouldn't pay $100 or more off the shelf for a 1/18 B-25? or a Mossie.
The general toy buying public doesn't want detail, they want little Sean, Scott or Moon Unit to be happy for a few hours before they break the thing and they will not buy a plane they never heard of. Vehicles are different, kids can play with even strange looking Strumwhatevers while buying some of the rare birds we want, won't happen. Our only hope for these rare birds is for 21C to market those rare birds to collectors, like us
, like Highway 61 and 1/16 vehicles or the other "notch" producers.
TTT
Detail is the reason 1/6 guys went from Hasbro GI Joe guys up to 21C guys and are now buying Dragon and DID. It forced 21C to raise the bar for the 21C figures and they are slowly getting better.
Detail, detail and more detail is what we want and we will pay for it. Who among us wouldn't pay $100 or more off the shelf for a 1/18 B-25? or a Mossie.
The general toy buying public doesn't want detail, they want little Sean, Scott or Moon Unit to be happy for a few hours before they break the thing and they will not buy a plane they never heard of. Vehicles are different, kids can play with even strange looking Strumwhatevers while buying some of the rare birds we want, won't happen. Our only hope for these rare birds is for 21C to market those rare birds to collectors, like us
, like Highway 61 and 1/16 vehicles or the other "notch" producers.TTT
Sometimes I am the windshield, sometimes, I am the bug.
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Birddog
- Officer - Brigadier General
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I say chop the moving control surfaces (with the exception of flaps ONLY if it is possible). If the moving control surfaces deletion will bring us an A-10 and a F-4 in 1/18 scale, DO IT!!! JUST GIVE IT THE SAME QUALITY AS bbi's F-18 AND F-16. Even with their flaws, they are awesome models. Just no weak landing gear or wings please..... 
Go Ugly Early in 1/18 scale!
Still waiting and wishing for a 1/18 A-10 Warthog.
Go Ugly Early in 1/18 scale!
Still waiting and wishing for a 1/18 A-10 Warthog.
More detail = more work = more cost = fewer models
The more detail on a model, the more it costs in terms of time and materials for research and making the thing. Fewer details (ie "generic" cockpit, no functioning control surfaces) means less fiddling around to get the model on the production line.
I'm in the "never mind the details, it's the paint scheme that catches the eye" crowd. Most people are only in it for the look of the model - how many have been sold compared to the number of people on this forum?
It's not exactly difficult to get on the 'Net and use Google or another search engine to find this place - it's how I found it.
I'd rather have more, cheaper, models than a few models with great detail. I don't mean that we should be prepared to accept semi-recognizable plastic blobs but there isn't really any call for the cockpit and control surfaces to be detailed if the model is just going to sit on a shelf or hang from a ceiling.
For those of us who want the extra detail, there's always the chance of kidnapping Mig29 or SteelBonnet or one of the other superdetailers on the forum...
This is just my .02Cr - YMMV.
I'm in the "never mind the details, it's the paint scheme that catches the eye" crowd. Most people are only in it for the look of the model - how many have been sold compared to the number of people on this forum?
It's not exactly difficult to get on the 'Net and use Google or another search engine to find this place - it's how I found it.
I'd rather have more, cheaper, models than a few models with great detail. I don't mean that we should be prepared to accept semi-recognizable plastic blobs but there isn't really any call for the cockpit and control surfaces to be detailed if the model is just going to sit on a shelf or hang from a ceiling.
For those of us who want the extra detail, there's always the chance of kidnapping Mig29 or SteelBonnet or one of the other superdetailers on the forum...
This is just my .02Cr - YMMV.
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Coreyeagle48
- Officer - Brigadier General
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- Location: Lehigh Valley, PA
Scale
I think a lot of it depends on the scale of the items too. For example, take your working control surfaces, they are not very noticeable if they do not work on a 1/32 scale aircraft but at the same time, make that same plane in 1/18 scale and it is noticeable. I personally feel for large scale models, detail is a must.
I do not collect the 1/18 planes because I have no room to do so, however, i do collect some of the larger World War I airplanes made by a Dutch company called Authentic Models. The detail of these airplanes is incredible and most of their airplanes are 1/12 scale or slightly larger. The details such as the working controls, detailed engines, rubber tires and authentic design is what makes those models. It is the reason I forked out the bills to buy them. They are terrific looking and detailed airplanes. I agree, in 1/18 scale, you need the details, it is what makes the models. It is the same reason why I bought Ertl american muscle cars for years, they had the best details for the dollar.
When you get to smaller scales, it's interesting. I decided to collect World War II in 1/32 scale and weighed my options between the Xtreme Wings line, Corgi, GMP and Armour in 1/48. In the end, I chose the Xtreme Wings line because to me they were the best detailed and a good price. $15 a plane is far more justified than the price of Corgi or the Armour line. Granted, those lines have beautiful planes but I cannot justify spending that much cash for one airplane. Especially for the size. Now I may pick up other lines of planes if 21st doesn't make them, but the Xtreme Wings line is by far the best value and detail for the price.
Interestingly enough, some of you know I recently completed my 1/32 B-25 Mitchell. You can see pics of it in the mods section. This model was an old Wen Mac gas powered control line airplane I converted. During the restoration and building process, I debated adding control surfaces and some cutting and kitbashing. Eventually, I decided it was nicer leaving some details off the airplane. This was easier for me and my limited modeling skills. And in the end, the airplane turned out only slghtly less nicer than the airplanes in the XW line. The kicker though, I spent a lot of money putting together that B-25. So, it did make me appericate just how much value and detail we get out of our airplanes.
And my final thought on this. It is interesting to see that planes that are cheaply painted or produced from companies like motormax don't really fit the niche of collectors anymore. I think people have a hard time justifying paying for those models that are cheaply made when they can get a better looking 21st 32X plane for nearly the same price. In 1/18 though, nothing compares, not yet anyway. BBI, 21st and Admiral have domination in the market. I think to stay that way, they need to keep their attention to detail and precision in their models
I do not collect the 1/18 planes because I have no room to do so, however, i do collect some of the larger World War I airplanes made by a Dutch company called Authentic Models. The detail of these airplanes is incredible and most of their airplanes are 1/12 scale or slightly larger. The details such as the working controls, detailed engines, rubber tires and authentic design is what makes those models. It is the reason I forked out the bills to buy them. They are terrific looking and detailed airplanes. I agree, in 1/18 scale, you need the details, it is what makes the models. It is the same reason why I bought Ertl american muscle cars for years, they had the best details for the dollar.
When you get to smaller scales, it's interesting. I decided to collect World War II in 1/32 scale and weighed my options between the Xtreme Wings line, Corgi, GMP and Armour in 1/48. In the end, I chose the Xtreme Wings line because to me they were the best detailed and a good price. $15 a plane is far more justified than the price of Corgi or the Armour line. Granted, those lines have beautiful planes but I cannot justify spending that much cash for one airplane. Especially for the size. Now I may pick up other lines of planes if 21st doesn't make them, but the Xtreme Wings line is by far the best value and detail for the price.
Interestingly enough, some of you know I recently completed my 1/32 B-25 Mitchell. You can see pics of it in the mods section. This model was an old Wen Mac gas powered control line airplane I converted. During the restoration and building process, I debated adding control surfaces and some cutting and kitbashing. Eventually, I decided it was nicer leaving some details off the airplane. This was easier for me and my limited modeling skills. And in the end, the airplane turned out only slghtly less nicer than the airplanes in the XW line. The kicker though, I spent a lot of money putting together that B-25. So, it did make me appericate just how much value and detail we get out of our airplanes.
And my final thought on this. It is interesting to see that planes that are cheaply painted or produced from companies like motormax don't really fit the niche of collectors anymore. I think people have a hard time justifying paying for those models that are cheaply made when they can get a better looking 21st 32X plane for nearly the same price. In 1/18 though, nothing compares, not yet anyway. BBI, 21st and Admiral have domination in the market. I think to stay that way, they need to keep their attention to detail and precision in their models
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DocTodd
- Officer - Lt. Colonel
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I like the details. I like the moving control surfaces and detail on the Corgi 1/32 scale planes. I admit they are pricey especially compared to 21st's Xtreme wings, but they are very nice. The Xtreme wings are a great value and look great even without the moving parts. Keep up the good work 21st. I would like to see some of the detail on some smaller models to help with space issues.
Todd
Todd