Small Scale Military Headquarters

I spoke with Roy Sutherland who is the the designer/project coordinator
for 21st Century Toys.

He emailed me yesterday and thought it was a good idea we chat, so we did.

He's a super nice guy, warm and friendly. We talked for probably 45 minutes or so. There were no major revelations i can think of, mostly because he was restricted in what he could tell me (and hence the public).

His backround is very impressive. He has been working in the toy industry for around 20 years or so, has been a professional model maker since '87. Worked on Star Wars Ep2, has written books, won countless model contests etc. He wanted me to assure everyone that he does his very best in researching every paint scheme that comes out. His knowledge is vast and he has a very impressive list of contacts of people he can draw on.

Anyway, here is as much detail as i can remember:

Zero: as has been said over and over it is not dead but also not likey anytime soon. Probably NOT in '05. The major reason is that the collector market (us) is just not big enough and that the sale of a couple of thousand units to us would not even come close to justifying the expense. The feeling is that the general public would not really be interested in a Zero. Limited repaint opportunities further hamper the appeal of making this subject and big toys don't sell well in Japan, which would probably be the biggest market for it. However, it is not dead. A bit of a crusher for me was that he said Russian planes are very unlikely as they sell worse than Japanese. I was very hopeful of a Yak and Sturmovik one day but that does not seem terribly likely at this point. I'm hoping this is disinformation that he wants me to unwittingly pass on;

A-10: Also, not dead. He said 'anything is possible' but i didn't get the impression it is anywhere in the near-ish future.

F-104 and Avenger: tooling being done now both should be out in first quarter of '05. Avenger DOES have folding wings and he said it is truly spectacular to behold. The rumour that 21c was thinking of cancelling it was just that, a rumour. They are very excited about it and its sales potential.

F-4: not a go yet. They have some serious misgivings about its size. I urged him to make it..

Panzer IV and Dodge truck: coming out 'soon'. To me this means in the first half of '05. Release dates are not his department so he couldn't give me any firm figures.

Me-262: Also coming in '05. He said it is spectacular too

Other German fighters: such as the Komet, He 162 etc are a strong possibilty. But i did not get the impression anything was underway as of yet. Even Luft '46 stuff was mentioned as possible one day.

MiG 15 and F-86: a go for '05

WWI planes: possible some day

More RAF types (Hurricane, Typhoon, Tempest, Mosquito): Probable one day

Big Stuff: I asked about the possibility of a B-25 (not totally out of the question) C-47 (ain't gonna happen...too big). I got the impression if anything of that magnituede is going to happen it will be a long ways away.

Future of Armour: armour sells ok but planes sell great. Since they have been struggling financially in the past they focused on planes. This is pretty much what we all figured. Armour will probably continue at a low level. So it's not dead. And for you 32x guys...there was a King Tiger and Jagdtiger shown at a toy show recently...so they are coming.

Figures: he promised that the quality is only going to improve. Head sculpts on the Platoon figures are excellent, Marines are out in the first half of '05 probably and there is more to come. Better pilots (no more sunglasses!) and better crew with modern stuff is promised. The knight figures shown at the Fall Toy Fair are 1/18 and are a go! They are really well done. No news on when or where they will be sold.

Huey D: i asked if there is much chance of them doing a proper Huey D slick. Not likely as helicopters in general don't sell as well as planes and except for collectors the general public would not appreciate the difference.

Modular assembly: He pointed out that the Spitfire was made in such a way that it could be updated to later marks quite easily. I had noticed this and he confirmed that it was done on purpose. So i think we can look forward to other Spitfire versions some day.


So, as i said no revelations but lots of good, solid info. I thought of a bunch of questions after i hung up (naturally) that i didn't ask. Hopefully i'll remember when we talk agin in a few months. He was very unwilling to give out any info other than what was generally already known.....this business is very competative and some info needs to be safegaurded until the time is right.

He did say there is a WWII twin coming in '05. Would not even tell me the nationality. My hunch is it's the Me 110 we've heard rumour of but who knows....as he kept saying 'anything's possible'.

He wanted me to assure everyone that 21c has a ton of cool projects on the go and that everyone should be really happy with what the future brings.

We'll be talking again in the future and of course i'll keep everyone updated with any tidbits...

(oh yeah, their is an r/c 1/6 hummer coming in the first few months of '05).

Thanks for the info. does 21st know about the new board? Any mention of them visiting in the future? Just wandering...
David

ah yes....he did visit the old board from time to time but never posted because he knew he would get inundated with questions and simply does not have time to answer them. He also went to the Hyper scale board but the interest there is only passing so he could post without fear of being bombarded.

I assume he knows about this new board as he would have seen the info on the old board. If not i can always email him the new url.

Thanks for the report, Aferg! Some good news to look forward to. If they don't think the Zero will sell in the general market, I wonder where they got their sales projections for Luft '46....
My guess for the twin is either a Me110 or B-25. Lots of re-paints possible for both.

Thanks for the update....and I told you to give them more credit on the USMC figs - they had the card backs at Toy Fair.

Good to hear the Avenger will have folding wings. As far as the Zero, I still say bull**** on the reasoning. I've spent alot of time in Japan and the notion they don't like big toys is pretty absurd. Also ANY hobbyshop you go to is chocked full of, you guessed it, WW2 Japanese aircraft, tanks, ships, etc. The majority of what's on the shelves is Japanese whether it be models or diecast. I myself think BBi will produce the Zero first as I've pretty much thought this since their announcement of the Mustang which I think will blow everyone away. Limited paint schemes for the Zero...3 from the get go come to mind: of course a Pearl Harbor version in grey, a solid green version, and a speckled green version. Anyway my bet for a twin is a Mosquito although a 110 would be premo.

I agree with the comment about the Luft 46 series being an almost certain bomb in regards to sales. Makes me think they really don't do their homework when it comes to sales research (news flash?). I think they'll get somewhat the same result with the F-104 too. Bully for the Avenger news though, and many thanks to aferguson for the update.

luft '46 was just mentioned in passing during a brief conversation regrding the Komet, He 162 etc. It is far from a reality. However, luft 46 model kits sell far better than japanese and russian aircraft kits...

Something that was stressed to me is that the collector base is just not large enough to support many of the subjects we want to see. As stated earlier sales of 2000 units of a particular item is looked upon as a disaster. So whatever they make has to have a broader appeal than just to collectors like us and the simple fact is that japanese (and russian) aircraft do not sell well.....not even amongst dedicated model kit builders.

Maybe one day, we may have a chance to get the more exotic items we want but they will more likely cost $200 a pop, not $40.

A Zero will sell big. I have to buy at least two, and possibly 3. Personally, Im getting tired of the German planes as I am more into the Pacific Theater than the ETO.

F-4 too big, hell yes, thats why its unofficial knickname is Rhino, and I want 2, an E model, in SEA cammo and a G with the WW tailcode as I have a friend who was stationed at George, and I have a stein and coffee cup with my callsign from his squadron. Gotta have it.

Ill probably buy only one 86 and 15 combo, and would probably pass on a 110 unless it had a killer scheme, a nightfighter version would be hard to pass up.

But man, I would really salivate over a Mosquito. And a Typhoon, that would be sweet, provided they sell it packed with a V-1.

As for armor, give me a Priest, AA halftrack, some arty, and a duece & 1/2. And a Cat Dozer with a John Wayne figure would be the cats backside!

Now, as for an A-10, even though Im not too interested in modern, the hog just reeks bulldog tough, and Ill get one but I have to have an OIF scheme.

Ill pass on the 104, just not that interested.

'Ferg, thanks a ton for the intell!!

Thanks for the great info!

It looks like I won't be getting out of the hobby anytime soon! I going ot have to buy a house for all this. The Avenger is a deffinite must, as are the ME-262, F-86 and MIG-15. I'm still a little unsure of the F-104, but then I look at the Matchbox one sitting on my desk and think of how lovely the streamlined look is...

It sounds like a ton of cool stuff is headed our way. I am really impressed with the amout of items we will see in 2005. I think I counted 5 new plane molds alone! New figures, & tanks. This is going to be a really fun year!

I've collected toy planes for over 30 yrs, bought, sold, traded for the better part of 10 yrs on a regular basis and I can tell you from experience Japanese planes sell well! Where does this BS "fact" come from? Yeah the CIA Huey was a sales ass kicker I bet...how about the blue and tan M2's that hoard shelf space at just about every WM in the nation with about 10 lbs of dust on each box. Keep in mind the same people that brought you the CIA Huey say the Zero won't sell...hmmm....good call. Come on BBi, show the braintrust what's what, bring on the Zero!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry to rant but I'm tired of hearing that Japanese planes don't sell when I know for a fact THEY DO, as I've said before just ask Marushin, Tamiya, Corgi, Dragon, Hasegawa....there's a small list of the big boys that sell both kits and diecast and they'd beg to differ with these "facts" we keep being quoted. The Zero was only the most famous PTO fighter there was, H-E-L-L-O!!!!!!! Now the rant is over...out.

I want to talk more about the avenger! I have been waiting for this bird ever since they announced it early this year. I am really glad to hear confirmation that it will have folding wings. Does anyone know for sure how big this is going to be in 1:18 in comparison to the P-38? will it have a larger wing span?

aferg- did they at all mention if the bomb doors on the belly open? I can't remember if we had intel confirming this? I am crossing my fingers! It is nice to see more navy planes.

Size wise it should be more comparible to the Stuka I'd think. I'm looking at my wallchart which is in 1/72 and the Stuka and Avenger are very close. Surely it'll have torpedo bay doors that open, you'd think..

21st just keeps telling about thier ideas but they take forever and a day to come up with the stuff!
I don't care for the planes, in fact I'm tired of them!!!!
It just shows that they are so desperate for money that all the can create is mainly planes.
I wish their was more armor, more helicopters like the CH-47 and more figures.
Even Wlmart is relentless to buy some of their products....for example figures.
And for what is worth, this is like the 3rd, 4th, or 5th person of 21st toys that tries to tells us what is coming out....Bahhh!
There was a lady before, then a guy, the Micheal, now this guy....I don't believe it. I will actually believe it when I see it, until then, 21st is just rumors!
may two cents!
take care,
HOOAH!

Yeah but aircraft put them on the map and aircraft sales had a large part in financing armor lines for us. I wouldn't bash the aircraft line too much. No planes = no armor, simple as that. You are correct in their statement accuracy though, seems the left hand never knows what the right hand is doing.

Good, Bad, and indifferent news...

My thoughts...

-Dejecting about armor. I disagree that it doesn't sell, it's just that the way they push the stuff, it doesn't sell. Unloading umpteen piles of tanks at a Wal-Mart isn't gonna sell squat, but when the Spitfires don't even SHOW in the Northeast, well you're gonna have whole regions of people ga-ga to get one.

Do choppers not sell because there's tons of AA Hueys laying around? What about the glut of P-38's at TRU, and the Corsair? The P-47 had to be clearanced here to move... I don't doubt that planes move, but I think the sheer fact TRU had planes left long after armor moved, just sorta seems contradictory.

I just don't see the idea that armor sits and planes move. They seem to move relatively equally when they're "hot" items that are highly sought after by the individuals. Walker Bulldogs just can't be a basis for judgement, ya know?

-More planes... I like it, but I can only afford the $ and space for so many. I'd like an Avenger just because. Even without a nice Vanilla Corsair, I will be happy to nab one. Sucks they'll never have an enemy though it seems. I see the logic in NOT doing one though, if it isn't gonna move.

I too am dejected on the Russian planes BTW Aferg. I wanted my Winter STuka to be getting tailed by someone.

-Figures... What's up with figures? He said an incredibly vague reply on them. Are other nationalities gonna happen? Where are you gonna sell them? Will Wal-Mart have them? Will we see those large packs, and what will they be like? Will we get remade basic infantry for Germans/U.S., but with the new articulation and removable helmets???

Where's the Japanese figures too?

-On the RC issue... While 1:6 RC is cool, have they considered 1:18 RC? What about RC 1:18 tanks, perhaps. They have the chassis set even. Just would need to work out the tracks/undercarriage. Who wouldn't kill for a 1:18 RC Sherman , and a German tank to take it on?

The figure news was the most disheartening because he glossed over it to me... I just don't get why figures are so blown off, when they're the basis to a toy line generally, and the vehicles are the complements. I can deal with the Armor thing, if they'd just push figures more than any vehicle. They really need to IMO. No toy line's complete without them.

They had planned a R.C sherman1/18 scale year before last to be sold through F.A.O$50.00 but i guess it fell through.On the avenger i can not wait the only thing is even if it makes the plane cost more Make the wing folding structure VERY sturdy 21st please! no cheap piece of plastic that will break the first time.

Aferg:
Thanks for the heads up, Roy is a very helpful person. He's been a great help in the past on a plastic model related board I've been frequenting longer than I had Gp's. I suspect he keeps close tabs on this board as he is the "Man" behind many of the XD Aircraft and he likes to be informed.

C'mon Roy..show yourself! lol

Back to your conversation with Roy, great questions posed and it's nice to hear that the A-10 "may" become a realty, which is further than when I corresponded with Roy re: that aircraft last year.

Keep up the good work, and thanks again for relating the info.

He didn't say armour and helicopters don't sell.....he said they don't sell AS WELL AS AIRPLANES DO. I don't think this should come as a surprise to very many people. This is why airplanes have been given the priority.

If you had a business that was struggling to stay afloat what would you do...make your most profitable item or make items that offer lower profit?

I think we should be glad that 21c is still around at all. The formula is not no planes=no armour; the formula is no planes=no 21century toys.

We talked for a long time (btw Ranger, he is one of the top guys, as i said he is the head designer/project coordinator) and it's not possible to discuss everything in depth, especially when there is a lot of info he couldn't divulge to me. More figures are coming. Japanese soldiers have already been shown on the card back of the Marines that are coming out next year.

Let's focus on the positve here people. For over a year 21c has been very accurate on their projections of new product release dates, the quality and accuracy of their stuff has steadilly improved, they have promised a ton of exciting new items for '05 and we have at least 3 new pieces of armour (m113, Pz IV, Dodge truck) out or coming out in the next few months.

They have rebounded from the brink....let's give them a little credit. They are a very small company and they are doing their very best.

Please let the 32X King Tiger be Porsche turreted!

May know where I can find pics of the 32X King Tiger & Jagdtiger? Thanx!

I can't believe Roy feels there is not a collector market big enough to support the release of the Zero. How can 21C justify the Mig 15 then?
An attractive paint job on a Zero will sell. If the "toy market" drives 21C, then the Zero will be accepted just as much as any other release. I struggle with the Mig-15 being OK to release but not the Zero.

Aferg:

Thanks for urging Roy to make the F-4 even though they have misgivings about it's size. It would be a damn shame if the only reason they don't do it is because it would not fit into the existing W-M box. A damn shame.

The F-4 has a prominate place in aviation history and as such needs to be made. Perhaps BBI will do it, since they did the F-18 which is of somewhat comparable size.

Thanks for sharing all the intel on 21st.

thanks for the great info aferg, awesome info to find out the marines are coming soon, and that they are going ahead with the platoon movie nam figures, that is the greatest news i have heard from them in a long time, but i guess i dont understand the apprehension 21c has with making a F4, if they are making a MiG 15 and F-86 the F4 is part of that same series of fighters, ganted it was on the tale end of the century series, i still consider it a viable plane to be included with these two. so far i havent been much for buying panes but i will definatly pick up the MiG and F-86, and an F4 if they make it.