Small Scale Military Headquarters

OK I will be taking Normandy's advice and run a poll on the Horten-229.

The other custom full builds out there are selling for $700. I know he is getting that price so maybe I should just make it and see if they will come.

$700 is high but they are moving at that price.

But I think if I try to keep this a little simple and keep with the quality these prices could be real.

So here is the poll let us see what happens.

If I get my 10 guy minimum who are willing get this. It will be done.

http://www.luft46.com/ggart/gg229.html

I voted $400 for a full build. And that means painted as well.

If you can do the kit, and I can arrange to have it assembled and painted for $400, I am in.

Not being cheap, just realistic. There is no way I would even consider a $700 custom, no matter how nice it was.

I do hope this gets done, but it may be out of my price range.

I dont think $400 is out of the question, Pickle it looks like we are almost there with the votes and you know Im in for several. The ones I sell on eBay will be fully built, painted, detailed and weathered. I cant grantee any starting price as I do not know exactly the time involved in the final assembly and I do not know the price break I will get in ordering multiple kits.

The days of anything new in 1/18 for under $100 that is fully built and painted is about gone. Major companies are only doing repaints of the old molds. One must accept that there may be no way to continue collecting in the scale if they can not afford to buy custom projects like this. Large scale models over the ages have been primarily for the wealthy as the kits cost much more and much space was needed to display them. This was briefly interrupted by 21st century toys who through Wal-mart were able to mass produce and distribute to a vast market of which many were not collectors and were able to become collectors for the first time. This period of time is unfortunately over. Major big-box retail will likely never carry anything like that again as they will remember the shelves filled with 21st centuries stuff, not moving and all with half off red stickers on them. E-tailers in the future may be outlets for more in the scale but prices may be much higher as production is likely to be much lower.

Around $250 for a kit is good for me.

I think $ 250 - $ 300 is a fair price for the kit, $400 - $450 is a damn good price for a full build.
When price starts getting near the 700 mark it's not a hobby anymore; for me.
So bring it on Pickel!

Looks like I have my minimum of guys !!!

I need a little input from you guys. I will throw a few things out there and I welcome any feed back .

If I do this project.

1. I will make a pop in cockpit area. Kind of like the BBI Zero.


2. I think that the landing gear may have to be pop in/out. In the original they put in over 300 Kg of extra weight even after moving the engines forward. That was to get the center of gravity right. I will probably have to put some weight up front to keep the nose down.
I will probably have to put brass in the gear strut to make sure that it will hold up. So movement may have to go by the wayside.

3. The original had some kind of levatating spoiler that acted as ailorons.But I think it did have flaps. But my plan is to do just a panel line were the flaps are because I will try to make the whole wing in one pour ( X 2 )

4. I plan to get stencils made up rather than decals. These could be a little cheaper. But I need to talk to Jackson to see on the cost of him making a decal set for the 229.

5. I have read that the double swastikas on the tail feather of the center section was painted on while that section was in the States. Which means that the original did not have any.But they look cool back there if not a little more sinister. Thoughts on the swasties ?

Feed back wanted.

Thanks,

Matthew

Pickel, You have to do this project........The World needs a Horten flying wing in 1:18th!!! I think folks outside our community would want one and maybe some at the other 1:18th forum.

1. The cockpit idea sounds cool but I'm fine if its built in as part of the aircraft, easier on production.

2. Landing gear: pop in / out is the way to go.

3. Flaps? we don't need no stinkn flaps. I was a mold maker for a sculptor for a few years so I know how difficult the wing pour will be. When AllGO or BBI buy the rights to your Ho-229 they can put in movable flaps.

4. Stencils for each kit? If so not a bad idea, reusable. Decals.......at this point, which is less expensive?

5. I think the swastikas look as you say "more sinister" on each side of the tail.

This project seems like its going to be a winner. The subject is just bad ass looking, it flew (not in combat) during WWII and the Smithsonian has had the Ho-229 hidden away for over 60 years.
Its time has come!
Normandy.

pickelhaube wrote:Looks like I have my minimum of guys !!!

I need a little input from you guys. I will throw a few things out there and I welcome any feed back .

If I do this project.

1. I will make a pop in cockpit area. Kind of like the BBI Zero.


2. I think that the landing gear may have to be pop in/out. In the original they put in over 300 Kg of extra weight even after moving the engines forward. That was to get the center of gravity right. I will probably have to put some weight up front to keep the nose down.
I will probably have to put brass in the gear strut to make sure that it will hold up. So movement may have to go by the wayside.

3. The original had some kind of levatating spoiler that acted as ailorons.But I think it did have flaps. But my plan is to do just a panel line were the flaps are because I will try to make the whole wing in one pour ( X 2 )

4. I plan to get stencils made up rather than decals. These could be a little cheaper. But I need to talk to Jackson to see on the cost of him making a decal set for the 229.

5. I have read that the double swastikas on the tail feather of the center section was painted on while that section was in the States. Which means that the original did not have any.But they look cool back there if not a little more sinister. Thoughts on the

I am willing to forgo details like movable control surfaces, a detailed cockpit and movable landing gear to keep the price lower. I would MUCH rather have decals than stencils. When you are designing it, I would like you to take hanging it up into consideration. I know a lot of us hang our planes and I would like that option.

This is wonderful news!

As for the overall design/tooling of the aircraft, I would expect that it could be done fairly simply given the aircraft's clean, streamlined lines. It didn't have too much in the way of riveting and odd bumps or angles that characterized many other period aricraft.

I could definitely do without the movable control surfaces. The early 1:18 planes didn't have them, the BBI Jets didn't have them, and the recent Pegasus X-1 didn't have them either. No movable control surfaces really does not detract from the model and will greatly simplify production.

I would like a cocpit with some detail. I'm not after anything like BBI or the later 21c pieces by any means, but I don't think the HO-229 even had that complex of a cockpit to begin with, being a late-war aircraft and all. I could settle for something along the level of the Pegasus X-1 or even the original 21c P-51 - a seat, control stick, instrument panel with a few raised bumps...

Actually, the idea of simply using a decal for the instruments that appliled to a flat panel (like the Pegasus X-1 kit) could work very well and wind up looking good and would simplify tooling on that part.

Hopefully the cockpit could be designed to open - or at least have the canopy pop off - so that we could insert a figure...

I like the idea of the pop-on/pop-off landing gear. As demonstrated by the BBI 1:32 F-4 and the myriad of 1:72 aircraft with that feature, it really is the way to go for simplicity.

Jackson makes excellent decals and sells them for a fair price. I've used his products with success for years and have been very pleased. The decals apply well with micro sol; apply a coating of dull-coat after drying and they can look painted-on. However, I also like the sound of using stencils for the markings... TKO211 does that with stunning results on his custom work.

As an aviation buff at heart, this is way more exciting than Pickelhaube's T-34 - and that T-34 is amazing

We are getting some great feedback coming in.

Keep it up !!!

YT - this will be done in 3 major parts 2 wing panels and a center section.I will use a dowl, pin or tube in order to join the wings to the center section.

By design this will be perfect to hang. Just tie your hanging lines to the spar before you slide them on all of the way and your hanging

There are a few guys who have said that their 229 will never be in a ground pose. Strictly hanging from the ceiling for them.

This may be a money saving option.

How many guys want standing gear as apposed to non visable gear up in flight versions ?

This plane extends well beyond the interests of 1:18 toy buyers. Have you considered contacting all-go to see if you could do a model for them, similar to the way whomever is doing the A-10? Have you considered doing that for any of your models?

I'm in if the price is 250. I need one of those planes. My most desired craft in 1:18.

Great news Matthew!

I will leave the decal/ stencil debate to those with more knowledge in this area. But swastika's would look great.

I would be happy enough with a simple cockpit. Seat, control stick, and a panel with decals for gauges. This may cut down on cost. People could customize, and improve at a later date.

No moving control surfaces is fine for me as well. Just adds to the complexity, and cost.

The landing gear is probably the biggest issue for me. Gear down means it will have to be displayed on the ground, and wouldn't look right on a stand, or hanging. Gear up limits your options as well. It would need a stand {pizzaguy}, or be hung. And I don't hang any models. Many diecast in 1/72 have "pop in" gear down assemblies, and if you want the gear up, a couple of doors snap into place over the hole. Or you could have a module that has the landing gear doors closed that pops into place, just like the gear down module. But you would need some way of exchanging these "modules". A small hole in the module, that you can use a special J shaped metal tool to pull it out.

I would really like the gear option, as only having one option really limits the display potential. And if I could only choose one, I don't know which one I would want.

Just my 2 cents.

This could be an awesome custom!

Thanks Matthew.

While the $250 price tag is a bit steep for me (Factoring in shipping costs as well), how much would just the central cockpit section cost? Figure I could just make my own wings.

Some of you may have seen the V Skyfighter model I am building. The maker customized his landing gear in just the way Snake is describing. Maybe Pickel could offer the gear as an option on the kit...

Hey pickel, I think I'm in for a full build but is that going to include painting since you're talking about stencils?
I think I would want the removable landing gear as well. I think this would be a crown jewel of a 1:18 collection. Do you think the full build price will exceed the 450 mark?

[quote="CW4USARMY"]Hey pickel, I think I'm in for a full build but is that going to include painting since you're talking about stencils?
I think I would want the removable landing gear as well. I think this would be a crown jewel of a 1:18 collection. Do you think the full build price will exceed the 450 mark?[/ quote]

The stencils OR decals will come with the kit.


I hope $450 will be the limit. The full build will be built and fully painted with all markings.

I intend for the canopy to slide open just like the 21st Fw-190 The main frame will be resin and the vacuform canopy will insert into the frame.

The gear will insert into peg holes and I am not sure if I will make 2 sets of gear doors or if one set will surfice.
The 2 sets being open and closed format. Just like I did for my P-36 gear doors way back when.

1. Cockpit: The cockpit should be made as a drop in, this is easier on production as you only need a hole in the large center section. I would do two versions; version one would be the economic solution all flat panels intended for decals to show detail, a stick and a seat. Version 2 would be a recast of a modified me262 type cockpit. I know I would want the economic version as I do not look forward to painting individual gauges, lights, throttle knobs and so on.. I would not think that most of the kit buyers would want to either. If the buyers of the completed model want that the price has to go up. This could be a poll in itself

2. Landing gear: pop in gear like the Starwars one shown is the way I would go. I think it would be the strongest and easiest to pop in and out without damage. You could make a single piece that would show the doors closed that would go with the "wheels up kit". The wheels down version would have the gear doors permanently fixed open attached to the wheel well drop in.

3. Flaps: Movable flaps are unneeded, control surfaces should be etched in with the rest of the panel lines. I think excessive rivet detail is not necessary but I would like the combat version with the wing root holes and cartridge dispensary slots under wings for the 30mm cannons.

4. Stencils or Decals: I think that this should be outsourced. Meaning that those who want the finished model wont be concerned as long as it looks great, the kits are being sold to those who should be able to use both, including a stencil would be nice but I dont think it is necessary as they are very easy to make. There has been a decal maker mentioned several times and I would let him pickup the slack and make alittle money selling a decal kit for it. But I do think that a simple decal set should be made for the "economic" cockpit.

5. I think the swastikas look good but it should be left up to the individual.

In summary it seems most of us are on the same page with most of these issues and there obviously is allot of interest in this project coming to light which is great! My thought is that there should be a flat price for the basic kit (airframe w/wheels up doors) then I think one should be able to decide if the want the landing gear kit or not, likewise one should be able to decide what cockpit they want (economic or detailed). During the process hopefully we can get prices to associate with the different cockpits and landing gear kit so it is easier for the individual to decide what they want for their Horton.

rivet detail is not necessary but would be cool.

I think rivet details would be very very cool but time and money expensive too

Crazy Kraut wrote:rivet detail is not necessary but would be cool.

I think rivet details would be very very cool but time and money expensive too

The Horten did not have rivets.

The skins were made of plywood that were scewed then tape and puttied over then sanded smooth.

I have seen the real wings virtually no details at all except small access hatch doors.

The models on the market show panel lines that mostly were not there. But it looks a lot better with them.

Mine will be a copy of the Dragon 1/48 . It has panel lines . Mine will too

IMO without panel lines they look RC.

And for the gear.. Well if I buy one I would ONLY be hanging it.

Any updates pickle? do you think you will offer a economy version (simplified cockpit) and will you offer a price break for no landing gear?

I too would like to see removeable landing gear as an option.

Jnewboy wrote:Any updates pickle? do you think you will offer a economy version (simplified cockpit) and will you offer a price break for no landing gear?

Yes I am thinking about it .

Lack of gear whould be easier in productions as well as in the full build.

A price is too early to speculate on right now.

Pickel, found this site........its got a few detail pics. cockpit, landing gear ect...... Cool pics and cool kits.
http://cadcam.e-monsite.com/rubrique,ho ... 27635.html
I still want one of Yours.

normandy wrote:Pickel, found this site........its got a few detail pics. cockpit, landing gear ect...... Cool pics and cool kits.
http://cadcam.e-monsite.com/rubrique,ho ... 27635.html
I still want one of Yours.

This looks like a pricey Gullow's kit. I built quite a few of them when I was a kid.

@ 120 Euros it aint cheap and you have to build up with sticks and balsa. All the the nacels and stuff are vacuformed. Just like a Gullows.

Mine will be probaly 1/10 of an effort than if you were to build that one.

So mine will be easier to build and have more detail for about the same price .

That kit is a r/c stick and and rib build. Mine will be like a big plastic model kit.

Of course my master will be a stick and rib build to get the shape.
But the finished kit will not be.