1/18 Sherman T-23 Full Build !!!

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Re: 1/18 T-23 turret / Jumbo Sherman ?? !!

Post by grockwood » Sat Sep 25, 2010 10:30 am

You might not have to make the transmission cover. I always thought the FOV's was too bulky and looked like the Jumbo's transmission cover as is.

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Re: 1/18 T-23 turret / Jumbo Sherman ?? !!

Post by 1958Zelda » Sat Sep 25, 2010 10:59 am

I'm good for one.

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Re: 1/18 T-23 turret / Jumbo Sherman ?? !!

Post by pickelhaube » Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:44 am

grockwood wrote:You might not have to make the transmission cover. I always thought the FOV's was too bulky and looked like the Jumbo's transmission cover as is.
That would make things simpler. I will have to look into it.

I WILL do the Jumbo Sherman .

It will come after the T-34 Russian . Unless (just like the T-23 turret ) YOU GUYS WHO HAVE DEPOSITED THEIR MONEY ON THE T-34 WOULD WANT THIS BEFORE THE T-34 .

Let me know

So to repeat.

You guys who have made the deposit for the T-34.

The Jumbo Sherman before or after the T-34 ? Please post or PM me :wink:
Kirk Douglas : Mine hit the ground first
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Re: 1/18 T-23 turret / Jumbo Sherman ?? !!

Post by 1958Zelda » Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:48 am

I would like to see the T-34 first,but will go with whatever the majority and you want first.

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Re: 1/18 T-23 turret / Jumbo Sherman ?? !!

Post by pickelhaube » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:20 am

It seems that everyone wants to hold off on the Jumbo after the T-34.

So it will be.

I am not too hip on the angles of the front glaciases. Glaci ?

When they changed the angles was this for the larger hatches ?

Did they have 2 different angles ?

Can you Shermie guys help me out on this ?

I plan to get back on the T-23 project this weekend .

I will be canabalizing a BBI to make the correct hatch area and glacias.

Those BBI Shermies are real hard to come by. They are the only " correct " Sherman out there that the T-23 turret will fit on with no modifications. So with this add on it should turn the FOV M-4A3 into the correct M-4A3 to accept the T-23 turret.

I am waist deep in orders and I think I will get them all done in order to get back on this project.
Kirk Douglas : Mine hit the ground first
John Wayne : Mine was taller



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grockwood
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Re: 1/18 T-23 Turret Need Tech Info

Post by grockwood » Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:53 pm

The change in the front plate was about the larger hatches and simplifing production of the hull front. The new one piece front needed less welds and the odd anles created by the driver and co-driver hoods were eliminated. There was only one angle for the new front.

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Re: 1/18 T-23 Turret Need Tech Info

Post by normandy » Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:58 pm

T-34 :) looking forward to this one.

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Re: 1/18 T-23 Turret Need Tech Info

Post by plasticboy » Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:59 pm

Man, the turret looking great!!
Have fun with toys forever!
http://weylent.blogspot.com/

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Re: 1/18 T-23 Turret Need Tech Info

Post by binder001 » Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:11 am

PH,

Sorry, I only drop in here once in a while, and frankly it's mostly to see what you are up to. Usually I'm a 1/35th modeler and 1/32nd "toy" guy.

1) The 76mm turret ONLY goes on the late M4A1 (the so-called "large hatch" hull), the M4A2 (diesel engined) and the M4A3. The M4A2s with 76s went only to the Soviets. Both the M4A2 and M4A3 used only the late welded hull - the one with a one-piece glacis angled at 47deg. This allowed a stronger glacis plate and allowed room for larger drivers' hatches on top.

You mentioned making a conversion for the 21C hull, but those are M4s - sorry no 76mm M4s were built (except for a single prototype that used the late M4 hull with cast front end). FoV makes a basic M4A3 hull/engine deck. 21C might be adaptable to an M4A1 76mm but you would need a whole new upper hull and the late "sharp nosed" transmission cover.

2) The 76mm gun is about 8 feet long from gun shield to back of the muzzle brake. There were three versions; 76mm gun M1 had a plain muzzle - these are found on early M4A1 76s, 76mm gun M1A1 had the muzzle threaded for installation of a brake, but the threads were covered with a cap - these were found on M4A3 76s and later M4A1 76s and even some M4A3E8s. 76mm gun M1A1C or 76mm gun M1A2 had the double-baffle muzzle brake fitted (the difference between the M1A1C and the M1A2 was the rifling, so externally they are the same). M1A1Cs appear on most M4A3E8s, late M4A3 76s an late M4A1 76s. All three versions of this gun also appeared on the M18 tank destroyers.

3) M4A1 76mm first went into combat with the 2nd and 3rd US Armored Divisions in late July, 1944. Some later deliveries went to the British as well as some other US units. A few M4A3 76mm were first delivered to the French 2nd Armored Division (2eme Division Blinde) in August, 1944. Later in the fall as deliveries increased the M4A3 76mm became the dominant 76mm Sherman type, but except for a very few to the French, all the M4A3s stayed in the US Army. Some M4A3 76s went to Italy. The M4A3E8 showed up right before the Battle of the Bulge and deliveries got significant during/after January, 1945. No 76mm Sherman saw combat in the Pacific (until Korea).

4) The BBI M4A3 has the correct basic hull for the M4A3 75mm (FoV type turret on their chassis), the M4A3 105mm howitzer (as supplied) the M4A3 76mm (their hull with your turret) and the M4A3E2 (Massive cast tranny cover, thick turret, extra plates on front and sides of upper hull, thick angular gun shield). As you noted M4A3E2 SHOULD have the duckbill extended end connectors and a "flattened" look to the suspension (due to the extra weight). I just wish I had grabbed up the BBI tank when they were available.

By the way, there weresome interesting upgraded M4A3s in Europe. Despite the reputation that Patton got about hating seeing sandbags on the tanks, he DID authorize the Third Army to upgrade M4A3 76mm tanks with extra steel armor. Some were regular M4A3 76s and some were M4A3E8s. These had extra plates added to the glacis and transmission covers, and sometimes on the forward edges of the upper hull. Some also had some plates added to the front edges of the turret. The co-ax MG was upgarded to a .50 caliber (aircraft style barrels show in the photos). The .50 caliber gun pedestal was moved to in front of the loader's hatch and an air-cooled .30 cal MG was added in front of the commander's cupola. These showed up in photos of the 4th, 6th, and 11th Armored Divisions.

See you later.

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Re: 1/18 T-23 Turret Need Tech Info

Post by binder001 » Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:55 pm

PH,

By the way, you can check my Picasa web albums for some photos of late Shermans on display in the US. See;
http://picasaweb.google.com/gebinder01

Look in the albums "Sherman types at the Patton Museum", "M4A1E8 Shermans in Nebraska", "M4A3 Shermans in Nebraska" and "Shermans Outside Nebraska" for a selection of detail shots.

Gary B.

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Re: 1/18 T-23 Turret Need Tech Info

Post by Panther F » Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:41 pm

Gary will set you guys straight on the Sherman and the T23 turret. :mrgreen:


- Jeff

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Re: 1/18 T-23 Turret Need Tech Info

Post by pickelhaube » Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:36 am

Thanks guys for all of the input. I will take it and run. I will work on this project this weekend and hopefully have something to show for it.

I will try to put this on the fast track ( yeah right :roll: ) so I can get on the T-34. I get focused on one little piece and before you know the time is gone.

I am chomping on the bit to get started on that Ruskie mobile !!!!!!!!!!
Kirk Douglas : Mine hit the ground first
John Wayne : Mine was taller



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Re: 1/18 T-23 Turret Project in Progress !!!

Post by pickelhaube » Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:11 pm

I worked all day on the FOV mod. Now with about 2 hrs work you will have a " correct " M-4A3 to go with my T-23 turret.

If you guys have a BBI Sherman the T-23 turret will go on without any modifications what so ever except a paint match.

But alas the BBi's are few and far between and they are starting to fetch high prices.

So for about $20 or so and a FOV Sherman you guys can make this work.

BTW

This version of the M-4A3 saw service in the Korean War . So you guys can get a lot more use out of those FOV's.

This mod opens up a lot more possible mods. Hybrids, late model M-4A1's and that Big Jumbo. !!!!

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The front glacias just glues on to the front of the FOV. You do need to gind off the old hatches and MG well.

The only precise cut you have to make is the splice area were it cuts across the turret ring. But the way I made the hatch area piece is forgiving. Just use putty if you goof and you are good to go. :D
Kirk Douglas : Mine hit the ground first
John Wayne : Mine was taller



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Re: 1/18 T-23 Turret Project Progress Pics !!!

Post by grockwood » Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:25 pm

That conversion looks really great. However the Korean war 76mm Shermans all had HVSS or E8 suspensions. A HVSS suspension is another good project for you.

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Re: 1/18 T-23 Turret Project Progress Pics !!!

Post by pickelhaube » Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:34 pm

grockwood wrote:That conversion looks really great. However the Korean war 76mm Shermans all had HVSS or E8 suspensions. A HVSS suspension is another good project for you.
Not quite.

I have a picture book on the subject. They stated them as old and arcaic but they were there.

There is a couple of pics with them with dozer blades on them. :D :D :D

The HVSS suspension is something that I may not devle into. NEVER SAY NEVER .

I just looked at the book cover to cover. They had 2 pics of the older suspension used as dozers and one as a recovery vehical . I did think that there was more pics but what I saw were bunches of the M-36s with the " older " suspention.
But you are right the majority of the Shermans had the HVSS suspensions.

The M-36 would be another sweet mod. They even put the M-36 turret on a regular Sherman.

Binder 001,

Those are some sweet pics. Now I know what the muzzel breal looks like close up.And some of the other pics are great as well.

THANKS FOR MAKING THE PICS AND POSTING THEM !!!!!!!!!

At one time I said that I would not do any American armor. I did not think it would sell. But you guys proved me wrong. :D

At one time there was more German XD out there to combat the Allies now as in the war the Allies have caught up. :D :D :D
Last edited by pickelhaube on Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:05 am, edited 3 times in total.
Kirk Douglas : Mine hit the ground first
John Wayne : Mine was taller



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Re: 1/18 T-23 Turret Project Progress Pics !!!

Post by Threetoughtrucks » Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:43 pm

Gary B:

Very interesting info on the later Shermans. What is news to me your reference to the co-ax machine gun being upgraded from .30cal to .50cal. Never heard of any pics of that.

Can you post the reference. There was a long barrel and short barrel .30cal as well as long and short barrel .50cal but it's hard not to tell the difference. I really can't imagine a '50 being fired from the close confines of a buttoned up Sherman.

I do have pics of the top mounted .50cal being moved to the front of the loaders hatch and pics of water cooled or air cooled .30cal in front of the commanders hatch and that makes sense later in the war as AA protection was not needed.

TTT
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Re: 1/18 T-23 Turret Project Progress Pics !!!

Post by pickelhaube » Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:08 am

There is one less BBI Sherman now on the planet because of the glacias addaption.

If you guys can give me a show of hands of who will be wanting the glacias mod.

Also give me a show of hands for turrets only.

Please post or PM me.

As I said before I want to TRY and put this on the fast track and I need the tally.
Kirk Douglas : Mine hit the ground first
John Wayne : Mine was taller



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Re: 1/18 T-23 Turret Project I need a show of hands

Post by mikeyt » Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:25 pm

will the new glacias work on the 21st century plastic sherman ?

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Re: 1/18 T-23 Turret Project I need a show of hands

Post by pickelhaube » Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:13 pm

mikeyt wrote:will the new glacias work on the 21st century plastic sherman ?
I made them fit the FOV.

The 21st Sherman is a M-4 it has the wrong rear deck. I could make a correct rear deck and adapt the front mod.

but I think that the 3 piece tranny cover would be wrong as well.

The M-4 is a " early " model Sherman.

The m-4A3 is a " late war " Sherman.

So I guess that the 21st Sherman is wrong for this whole application. Unless guys in the know could shed light .
Kirk Douglas : Mine hit the ground first
John Wayne : Mine was taller



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Re: 1/18 T-23 Turret Project I need a show of hands

Post by exether_mega » Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:30 pm

True about the 21st Century model. The BBi one is needed for this kind of version.

If some of you are looking for a BBi version, I have to check with a friend who may have 2 or 3 still boxed. Please let me know but remember they are here in Belgium so shipping will be between $30-$35.

phil

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Re: 1/18 T-23 Turret Project I need a show of hands

Post by binder001 » Sun Oct 03, 2010 8:22 pm

Hi again,

1) You guys are correct that this needs to go on an FoV or a BBi, both are M4A3s (Ford V-8 liquid-cooled engine) versus the 21C which is an M4 (radial air-cooled engine). There weren't any 76mm M4s produced. And, NO they didn't do field mods like dropping this turret on an extra hull - the whole insides would need rebuilding.

2) Yes, there were limited numbers of the M4A3s with 76mm guns and the "narrow tracks" (VVSS). Most were (or were intended as) dozer tanks. You could take PH's new 76mm M4A3 conversion and add PH's dozer blade kit and have a correct Korean War dozer tank. In the Google collection of old LIFE magazine photos was a nice sequence of the 72nd Tank Battalion landing in the Pusan area as part of the 2nd Infantry Division. The sequence clearly shows an M4A3 76mm dozer tank among the M4A3E8s (as well as an M32B3 recovery vehicle and several WW2 halftracks).

3) References for the upgraded M4A3s in Third US Army are in Steve Zaloga's "Armored Thunderbolt", as well as a couple articles in Military Modeling magazine (out of England). There are also photos around that really pop out when you know what you are looking for. Any real Shermanoholic needs the Zaloga book, it explains a lot about why the Sherman was the way it was.

4) Yes, there were M36 90mm Gun Motor Carriage turrets mounted on M4A3 hulls. 187 were built and classed as M36B1. They saw service late in Europe (about MAR45 to VE day). Oddly, some were refurbished and supplied to Iran under Military Assistance, some were captured by Iraq, then taken from them by Coalition forces in 2003. One went to Poland and I think one went to a museum at Ft. Hood, TX (the wartime home of the Tank Destroyer Command).

This conversion looks neat - I picked up an FoV M4A3 via eBay and am tempted to get this. By the way, remember that the applique armor (the armor patches on the sides) should NOT be present on the late hull M4A3s. They wouldn't make sense anyway, the ammo racks they were protecting on the original hull design were moved down into the bottom of the hull on the redisgned "wet stowage" hulls.

Enjoy these fine conversion kits.

Gary B.

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Re: 1/18 T-23 Turret Project I need a show of hands

Post by pickelhaube » Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:20 pm

Here we go. I think that I got all of the bells and whistles . I think I am ready to mould.

I think that I may also do a radio wire for the areal. Probably the first one in the XD world other than my star antenna for the German vehicals.

Does anybody know how long or tall it was. if you can tell me the 1 to1 scale I can work it out in 1/18 scale.

Any comments before I start casting ? :D

BTW,

The brass tube behind the mantlet is there for strength during the building process . It will NOT be there in the production pieces. :wink:

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Re: 1/18 T-23 Turret Project Build is done ready for moulds

Post by 1958Zelda » Tue Oct 05, 2010 7:53 am

Every thing looks wonderful . count me in for two turrets and two glacias and one jumbo kit.

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Re: 1/18 T-23 Turret Project Build is done ready for moulds

Post by binder001 » Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:34 am

Radio antenna - a US tank radio antenna was usually about 9-10 feet long. Three sections of about three feet long (each) screwed together, plus the spring base.

The turret looks really nice!

Gary B.

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Re: 1/18 T-23 Turret Project Build is done ready for moulds

Post by Threetoughtrucks » Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:11 pm

The WW2 radio antenna was standard for U.S. vehicles with radios, came in a canvas roll up "jacket" with four 3 foot antenna sections that screw into each other. The third and forth sections were interchangeable depending on how long a antenna you wanted, 9' or 12'. Looking at the antenna, you would think they were one antenna. The antenna post was different depending on the vehicle and radio set used.

I rarely used the full four sections because of the dangerous possibility of hitting low hanging wires on parade routes. When hit the antenna would whip back or I would have been electrocuted. :roll: Either result would not have made me a happy camper. :P

I had the full set for my Command Car bought new surplus in the 70's.

TTT
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