Ok the game is over we saw a few funny commercials made it through the wardrobe malfunction and feel a bit frustrated with our team for throwing so many interceptions.
quick poll and discussion on what direction 21 should have focused on or done differently if you/we/they were in charge.
Arm Chair Quarterback what 21st should have done
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STUKA
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Arm Chair Quarterback what 21st should have done
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vmf214
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Curious why you would say Tender Terror was a nail in the coffin. Poor business decisions, skipping the QC process, and ignoring their fan base should've been the no.1 choice. 
Tender Terror imo was actually a pretty smart move as it for the most part did what it was desgined to do, rid wm shelves of Dora's...
Tender Terror imo was actually a pretty smart move as it for the most part did what it was desgined to do, rid wm shelves of Dora's...
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STUKA
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I thought about that too - but the planes sitting on WM shelves were already purchased by WM - but i was also thinking wrong as it was only a paint job and box design difference - not a completely new mold that would have been a money drain for a few planes- besides it was only one nail - there were many others - also after the 190's finally cleared out we never really saw the same scale of planes sitting on the shelf again - well maybe the Migsvmf214 wrote:Curious why you would say Tender Terror was a nail in the coffin. Poor business decisions, skipping the QC process, and ignoring their fan base should've been the no.1 choice.
Tender Terror imo was actually a pretty smart move as it for the most part did what it was desgined to do, rid wm shelves of Dora's...
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pickelhaube
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Walmart was the demise of 21st.
If only they had a handel on walmart's distrubution , things would not of ended like they did.
It does not make too much sense to me to have 20 of an object at one walmart and none at the others. Spread them out evenly and they ALL WOULD HAVE SOLD. Kind of a no brainer to me.
I voted other.
If only they had a handel on walmart's distrubution , things would not of ended like they did.
It does not make too much sense to me to have 20 of an object at one walmart and none at the others. Spread them out evenly and they ALL WOULD HAVE SOLD. Kind of a no brainer to me.
I voted other.
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Dauntless
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There at the end it was their 1:32 planes that seemed to be doing good.
There were a few shelf warmers, but for the most part they were selling good at Walmart, and always seem to sell out.
Particularly the retooled P-51D (except the sharkmouth for some reason) and the P-51 B/C and the Spitfire. Even online these disappeared fast. Some like the Spit never made it to e-tailers.
A few more repaints of these would have helped, but I think the writing was on the wall.
I think if they had not been dropped by Wally world, they could have kept it alive with the 1:32 line alone there.
It had the right price for cheap Walmart shoppers.
The 1:18 could have remained in production for e-tailers and Toys R Us. Just cut back on the P-51D repaints which tko211 had already said there were too much of hence why the planned 1:18 Mustang B/C's didn't make it out of the gate.
If anything I blame the Banking Clan for the demise of 21st, and the state of the worldwide economy that put an already struggling company with vision and good ideas planned, under. I'd like to personally string a few of em up.
There were a few shelf warmers, but for the most part they were selling good at Walmart, and always seem to sell out.
Particularly the retooled P-51D (except the sharkmouth for some reason) and the P-51 B/C and the Spitfire. Even online these disappeared fast. Some like the Spit never made it to e-tailers.
A few more repaints of these would have helped, but I think the writing was on the wall.
I think if they had not been dropped by Wally world, they could have kept it alive with the 1:32 line alone there.
It had the right price for cheap Walmart shoppers.
The 1:18 could have remained in production for e-tailers and Toys R Us. Just cut back on the P-51D repaints which tko211 had already said there were too much of hence why the planned 1:18 Mustang B/C's didn't make it out of the gate.
If anything I blame the Banking Clan for the demise of 21st, and the state of the worldwide economy that put an already struggling company with vision and good ideas planned, under. I'd like to personally string a few of em up.
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vmf214
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Agreed. If wm was "so good" for 21st why are they DOA now...as alot of small companies that sold their soul to them. Whole heartedly disagree that Tender Terror had even a 1% involvement with the demise of 21st, just no foundation for such a claim. TKO said himself only 30 total planes were made, hardly a back breaker but a heckuva collectible!pickelhaube wrote:Walmart was the demise of 21st.
If only they had a handel on walmart's distrubution , things would not of ended like they did.
It does not make too much sense to me to have 20 of an object at one walmart and none at the others. Spread them out evenly and they ALL WOULD HAVE SOLD. Kind of a no brainer to me.
I voted other.
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STUKA
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oh i agree wish i had won one - just trying to put up different ideas for the poll - i also typed less armor more planes - when i actually wanted more armor - I almost put WM as a poll choice but figured other would cover that -vmf214 wrote:Agreed. If wm was "so good" for 21st why are they DOA now...as alot of small companies that sold their soul to them. Whole heartedly disagree that Tender Terror had even a 1% involvement with the demise of 21st, just no foundation for such a claim. TKO said himself only 30 total planes were made, hardly a back breaker but a heckuva collectible!pickelhaube wrote:Walmart was the demise of 21st.
If only they had a handel on walmart's distrubution , things would not of ended like they did.
It does not make too much sense to me to have 20 of an object at one walmart and none at the others. Spread them out evenly and they ALL WOULD HAVE SOLD. Kind of a no brainer to me.
I voted other.
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Jesse James
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I've said it before and I'll say it again, a toy line like 21st had needed a strong inexpensive base as its primary source of income. Something they could take and re-use easily and inexpensively once the fixed costs were in place and depriciating. That means more figures, less vehicles...
21st's model revolved too much around tooling up large, expensive, complex toys that cost a fair bit of cash, and hoping you could resell them repeatedly with a white wash or a different deco. That's a little unrealistic without something core at the foundation that was less expensive, sold more units, and could be manufactured for a fraction of the cost... IE: Action figures.
21st needed to focus on figures, first and foremost. Figures should've had steady wave adjustments, case adjustments, etc. Instead they shipped the same case out with no adjustments, and thus stores (both etail and B&M) were left with tons of figures that wouldn't sell, while the ones that would became scarce. It's something larger retailers adjust for, and something 21st made no attempt to, ever.
To even consider that there should've been "more planes instead of armor" is simply nuts. Planes were, without a doubt, what I saw the majority of at retail sitting there never selling. Even on clearance. The problem was too much of the higher priced pieces, and those should've relegated to a couple a year IMO...
I think a small-vehicle or "deluxe" type line would've done well if they'd tried it as well. Again, go for smaller, cheaper to produce, and easy to re-use... Jeeps, Kubels, etc. Small artillery, 2-packs, "team" 2-packs, etc.
These things you can re-use again and again... Repaints galore will sell due to the price, and with every unit produced and sold your profit margins are simply increasing.
How many Mustangs and repaints of mustangs can you honestly sell? Now take that and replace Mustangs with 50's era jets, or some such? You can only move so much of a $50, $60, $70 product.
I'd say you also have to factor in how things interact with the figures as well... Figures do less with the planes than the armor, but I think armor (big armor, ala tanks) needed just as limited as the planes. You can't put out too much at one time.
That's my opinion is all, but I really think blaming WM is too easy... Their distribution of THIS line sucks, no doubt, but 21st's to blame in part too. Case assortments never changing and whatnot. Look at FOV... It's doing relatively well because they've mixed things up a little. One line came out, sold through, a second wave of new stuff came out, sold through, the first wave now is back... now a third wave of new stuff... Vehicles are secondary to this line too, which is pretty obvious. It's a business model that is pretty proven to various toy lines, and which even works at WM.
21st's model revolved too much around tooling up large, expensive, complex toys that cost a fair bit of cash, and hoping you could resell them repeatedly with a white wash or a different deco. That's a little unrealistic without something core at the foundation that was less expensive, sold more units, and could be manufactured for a fraction of the cost... IE: Action figures.
21st needed to focus on figures, first and foremost. Figures should've had steady wave adjustments, case adjustments, etc. Instead they shipped the same case out with no adjustments, and thus stores (both etail and B&M) were left with tons of figures that wouldn't sell, while the ones that would became scarce. It's something larger retailers adjust for, and something 21st made no attempt to, ever.
To even consider that there should've been "more planes instead of armor" is simply nuts. Planes were, without a doubt, what I saw the majority of at retail sitting there never selling. Even on clearance. The problem was too much of the higher priced pieces, and those should've relegated to a couple a year IMO...
I think a small-vehicle or "deluxe" type line would've done well if they'd tried it as well. Again, go for smaller, cheaper to produce, and easy to re-use... Jeeps, Kubels, etc. Small artillery, 2-packs, "team" 2-packs, etc.
These things you can re-use again and again... Repaints galore will sell due to the price, and with every unit produced and sold your profit margins are simply increasing.
How many Mustangs and repaints of mustangs can you honestly sell? Now take that and replace Mustangs with 50's era jets, or some such? You can only move so much of a $50, $60, $70 product.
I'd say you also have to factor in how things interact with the figures as well... Figures do less with the planes than the armor, but I think armor (big armor, ala tanks) needed just as limited as the planes. You can't put out too much at one time.
That's my opinion is all, but I really think blaming WM is too easy... Their distribution of THIS line sucks, no doubt, but 21st's to blame in part too. Case assortments never changing and whatnot. Look at FOV... It's doing relatively well because they've mixed things up a little. One line came out, sold through, a second wave of new stuff came out, sold through, the first wave now is back... now a third wave of new stuff... Vehicles are secondary to this line too, which is pretty obvious. It's a business model that is pretty proven to various toy lines, and which even works at WM.
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cranedriver
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This would have been my gameplan for 1:18.
1. Release 20-30 unique 1:18 scale figures a year. Vary from wave to wave different wartime figures. Keep case assortment fresh with each new wave.
2. Downsize packaging and release some smaller 1:18 items throughout the year. (ie.....kettengrads, jeeps, kubels, motorcycles with side car, artillery, and other accessories that would go with the figures well)
Reducing package size would be key here. So you can get more into less shelf space.
3. Release only six big ticket items per year. ( this would include armor and planes). Put out a new product roughly ever couple of months and about October/ November ship revision cases that mix the bigger items from throughout the year. Again try to reduce package size where possible even if it means a little more consumer assembly.
4. Have a heavy hand in distrubution. Make sure your products get spread out evenly across the country.
5. Be a etailer of your own to help control your pricing and over exclusives available strictly from your site ( ie limited production repaints possibly in special packaging)
6. Produce diorama pieces that joined together create larger pieces or will work fine together on ther own (this would be the gamble)
As far as 1/32 I think it was being handled good other than distribution.
My 2 cents and thats about all it is worth
1. Release 20-30 unique 1:18 scale figures a year. Vary from wave to wave different wartime figures. Keep case assortment fresh with each new wave.
2. Downsize packaging and release some smaller 1:18 items throughout the year. (ie.....kettengrads, jeeps, kubels, motorcycles with side car, artillery, and other accessories that would go with the figures well)
Reducing package size would be key here. So you can get more into less shelf space.
3. Release only six big ticket items per year. ( this would include armor and planes). Put out a new product roughly ever couple of months and about October/ November ship revision cases that mix the bigger items from throughout the year. Again try to reduce package size where possible even if it means a little more consumer assembly.
4. Have a heavy hand in distrubution. Make sure your products get spread out evenly across the country.
5. Be a etailer of your own to help control your pricing and over exclusives available strictly from your site ( ie limited production repaints possibly in special packaging)
6. Produce diorama pieces that joined together create larger pieces or will work fine together on ther own (this would be the gamble)
As far as 1/32 I think it was being handled good other than distribution.
My 2 cents and thats about all it is worth
Is that you John Wayne, this is me!!
WM was inititially the saviour of 21c. If not for them 21c would have folded years ago, when they went into chapter 11. The WM deal bought 21c several years and as a result gave us a lot of great toys.
In the end WM's lousy distribution and 21c flooding WM with the same repainted planes all at once (eg fw-190, p-47) and poor S1 colour scheme choices (atlantic avenger) killed the WM deal. I agree that better figure case assortments and some focus on small support items for figures (jeeps, small arty) would have helped, but i don't think it would have made the difference between keeping the WM contract and losing it. Package size was a small factor too. Compare BBI's slim trim P-51 box to the massive 21c P-51 box. But these were all minor factors. It was crappy distribution coupled with the flooding of too many repaints and poorly chosen paint schemes that clogged WM shelves with big items that would not sell and that killed the deal.
21c still could have still survived, via etailers, until they were able to build a bigger presence at TRU or Target but the spike in oil prices, quickly followed by the credit crisis was the shot in the head that finished them off.
In the end WM's lousy distribution and 21c flooding WM with the same repainted planes all at once (eg fw-190, p-47) and poor S1 colour scheme choices (atlantic avenger) killed the WM deal. I agree that better figure case assortments and some focus on small support items for figures (jeeps, small arty) would have helped, but i don't think it would have made the difference between keeping the WM contract and losing it. Package size was a small factor too. Compare BBI's slim trim P-51 box to the massive 21c P-51 box. But these were all minor factors. It was crappy distribution coupled with the flooding of too many repaints and poorly chosen paint schemes that clogged WM shelves with big items that would not sell and that killed the deal.
21c still could have still survived, via etailers, until they were able to build a bigger presence at TRU or Target but the spike in oil prices, quickly followed by the credit crisis was the shot in the head that finished them off.
i never met an airplane i didn't like...
If you ask me they had there eye on the prize. They wanted to do the big projects so they put all their eggs in Wal-Mart’s basket. They should have seen the slowing trends coming and started looking for other venues to make sales. Instead they heavily relied on Wal-Mart. When they dropped them 21c was dead in the water. It’s truly sad because they were the cornerstone of our collecting habits. If JSI hadn’t come in and bought up a good portion of the old 21c molds then we would have almost nothing to look forward to in 1:18th.
That being said the comments on paint schemes and market saturation are also correct. The big discounts we all drooled over were indeed a sign of things to come. I still feel that they could have survived if they had not completely relied on Wal-Mart. Starting up their own e-store or partnering with a good company would have done wonders for them. Maybe we wouldn’t be getting big new items but they would have been able to weather this storm.
That being said the comments on paint schemes and market saturation are also correct. The big discounts we all drooled over were indeed a sign of things to come. I still feel that they could have survived if they had not completely relied on Wal-Mart. Starting up their own e-store or partnering with a good company would have done wonders for them. Maybe we wouldn’t be getting big new items but they would have been able to weather this storm.
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flayrah
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Showing samples and making product announcements for things that never arrived.
Cancelling items that had the potential to be successful but were never produced.
Signing the exclusive deal with WalMart.
Abandoning the collectors club and therefore loosing touch with the customer.
Thinking they know more about what the customer wants than the customer.
From what I hear, treating e-tailers like second-class partners.
Over-expanding by putting their names on 1/6, 1/18, 1/32, 1/48 AND 1/144 products before any of those markets are firmly established and maintained.
More concern with quantity, rather than quality.
Hiring, and then firing, some of the best designers and sculptors available.
Over-spending on promotions and flash at the earliest stages of their business when they should have concentrated on establishing their company as solid and dependable.
Cancelling items that had the potential to be successful but were never produced.
Signing the exclusive deal with WalMart.
Abandoning the collectors club and therefore loosing touch with the customer.
Thinking they know more about what the customer wants than the customer.
From what I hear, treating e-tailers like second-class partners.
Over-expanding by putting their names on 1/6, 1/18, 1/32, 1/48 AND 1/144 products before any of those markets are firmly established and maintained.
More concern with quantity, rather than quality.
Hiring, and then firing, some of the best designers and sculptors available.
Over-spending on promotions and flash at the earliest stages of their business when they should have concentrated on establishing their company as solid and dependable.
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Quixote511
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Certainly, they needed to have better choice on S1 schemes and the WM distribution system killed them.
As well, we have to mention the price point. We got fat and happy buying items on clearence. With WM gone, we couldn't handle the price increase.
Also, I think the strategy of dueling with other companies wound up being a shot in the foot. Doing more and smaller would have been a nice idea.
As well, we have to mention the price point. We got fat and happy buying items on clearence. With WM gone, we couldn't handle the price increase.
Also, I think the strategy of dueling with other companies wound up being a shot in the foot. Doing more and smaller would have been a nice idea.
Aaron
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Black_Dragon_One
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vmf214
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Problem I saw time and again at wm was when small kids would look at a 1/18 plane the parents would direct their attention elsewhere followed up by a "you don't need a remote control plane you'll just break it"...also wish I had a dollar for every wm cashier that asked "wow is this remote control?". I believe there is a wide spectrum of issues that led to the failure at wm, wm being the biggest instigator. Can't really see blaming a paint scheme but oversaturating an area with the exact same scheme I believe was definitely a bad idea. When the Atlantic Avenger for instance showed in my AO they flew off the shelves at $70 a pop, then at Christmas time the bloody shelves were overrun with them, but by feb they dropped them to $25 & they were gone practically overnite.
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parrish333
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title says it all
This is SO appropriately titled "Arm-chair quarterback". Not many of us have ever ran, let alone worked for, a toymaker. Did 21C make mistakes? Well, of course. But I'm sure we don't know the 1/2 of it...the main piece being trying to balance the very specific needs of a picky collector base while trying to keep the general WM-buying populace happy. Our opinions seem to inevitably (and understandably) always fall on the former, but in the end we weren't the biggest driver of sales.
I think WM was a big part of the issue, but what smallish toymaker wouldn't have said "YES!" to WM?! That's instant mega-exposure. Of course they're going to go for it, even if they have to make compromises left and right at WM's whims. In hindsight, I wish they'd gone the AT or Pegasus route and focused on online sales targeted almost solely to a collector base like us, but again, I'm sure I would've been bitten by the WM bug if I was running 21C. Seems like the WM deal got us more product cheaper and faster, but killed 21C in the end. Staying small all those years, putting out just a few items a year - maybe they'd still be alive, but still wouldn't have as of yet produced probably 1/2 of what they did in their meteoric rise and fall.
I always go back to my Rule #1 when people arm-chair-quarterback-it: do you really think the guys whose full time jobs it is to make loads of $$$ for their company didn't think of the brilliant idea you just posted? If it truly is brilliant, the free-market will eventually find it and some other guy will be a bizillionaire b/c he followed your advice and made more planes, less planes, more repaints, less repaints, or whatever the magic-bullet is. Just look at the pet-rock guy
I guess in the end I'm saying I would have made at least as many mistakes running that company. For example: 190s not selling at all and 104s selling really well - I certainly couldn't have predicted that. Again - we were NOT the ones providing most of the capital for the next 21C project.
Alas, I think they put out some pretty sweet stuff while it lasted. I think the whole reason people are so opinionated on the matter isn't b/c they sucked, but rather b/c they had flashes of brilliance and we wish they could've had more. Nobody sits around bemoaning what could've been for Chap Mei or True Heroes or Freedom Ops Network (except me, but that's another story). Truth is it's hard to be awesome (meaning fans happy AND big bucks coming in) a little, let alone all the time.
Oh yeah - to be fair to my own point, disregard everything I just said 'cause I probably don't know the 1/2 of it I'm better off just saying "HI MOM!!!"
I think WM was a big part of the issue, but what smallish toymaker wouldn't have said "YES!" to WM?! That's instant mega-exposure. Of course they're going to go for it, even if they have to make compromises left and right at WM's whims. In hindsight, I wish they'd gone the AT or Pegasus route and focused on online sales targeted almost solely to a collector base like us, but again, I'm sure I would've been bitten by the WM bug if I was running 21C. Seems like the WM deal got us more product cheaper and faster, but killed 21C in the end. Staying small all those years, putting out just a few items a year - maybe they'd still be alive, but still wouldn't have as of yet produced probably 1/2 of what they did in their meteoric rise and fall.
I always go back to my Rule #1 when people arm-chair-quarterback-it: do you really think the guys whose full time jobs it is to make loads of $$$ for their company didn't think of the brilliant idea you just posted? If it truly is brilliant, the free-market will eventually find it and some other guy will be a bizillionaire b/c he followed your advice and made more planes, less planes, more repaints, less repaints, or whatever the magic-bullet is. Just look at the pet-rock guy
I guess in the end I'm saying I would have made at least as many mistakes running that company. For example: 190s not selling at all and 104s selling really well - I certainly couldn't have predicted that. Again - we were NOT the ones providing most of the capital for the next 21C project.
Alas, I think they put out some pretty sweet stuff while it lasted. I think the whole reason people are so opinionated on the matter isn't b/c they sucked, but rather b/c they had flashes of brilliance and we wish they could've had more. Nobody sits around bemoaning what could've been for Chap Mei or True Heroes or Freedom Ops Network (except me, but that's another story). Truth is it's hard to be awesome (meaning fans happy AND big bucks coming in) a little, let alone all the time.
Oh yeah - to be fair to my own point, disregard everything I just said 'cause I probably don't know the 1/2 of it
I'm better off just saying "HI MOM!!!"
Last edited by parrish333 on Thu Jun 18, 2009 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
stop beating a dead horse
How many more times do we have to go over this ??????
We know why it happened !!!!!! i'm just tired of reading all the
shoulda , coulda and woulda ......
It's done let it go man!!!!!!!! my 3 cents worth,,, inflation you know
Dana
We know why it happened !!!!!! i'm just tired of reading all the
shoulda , coulda and woulda ......
It's done let it go man!!!!!!!! my 3 cents worth,,, inflation you know
Dana
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parrish333
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Re: stop beating a dead horse
Well there's the whole reason people keep posting - b/c we all have a diff. opinion on the million-dollar WHY?dcway wrote:How many more times do we have to go over this ??????
We know why it happened !!!!!! i'm just tired of reading all the
shoulda , coulda and woulda ......
It's done let it go man!!!!!!!! my 3 cents worth,,, inflation you know
Dana
So absolutely it's "shoulda, coulda, woulda". And we can't let it go because that's the last stage of grief (acceptance) and we're clearly all in the "bargaining" stage. Some maybe still just in the anger stage
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normandy
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I'm not going to vote in this pole.........
21st did for 1:18th what no one else did! Before all of these already built & painted models showed up........ kits of this scale (more like 1:15th - 1:16th) cost in the Hundreds of $$$$$ and had to be built, figures were $20.00 to $30.00 each.
Walmart and production in China are the biggest factors that got us to this point.
Quality Control half way 'round the world and distribution or lack of here...What chance did 21st have? Ah that's rhetorical.
Many Thanks Mr. Allen for all You've done for this hobby and My Hope is that 21st will come back bigger and in the forefront of 1:18th Production.
21st did for 1:18th what no one else did! Before all of these already built & painted models showed up........ kits of this scale (more like 1:15th - 1:16th) cost in the Hundreds of $$$$$ and had to be built, figures were $20.00 to $30.00 each.
Walmart and production in China are the biggest factors that got us to this point.
Quality Control half way 'round the world and distribution or lack of here...What chance did 21st have? Ah that's rhetorical.
Many Thanks Mr. Allen for all You've done for this hobby and My Hope is that 21st will come back bigger and in the forefront of 1:18th Production.