Sakai Zero Color Mismatch?

King O' Fools · Post by **King O' Fools** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:04 pm

Speaking of the BBI Zero, here’s a customer review from BadCat:

I have the first Zero (AI-154) in this series and was surprised this version has the same light green tint color.

Why that matters is I expected a white grey as seen in the website photos and reference books which provide color plates of Japanese fighters. Maybe my eyes are off.

Of course I realize mockups, etc may not match the final version. However, the white grey seems correct and the light green seems wrong. More noteworthy is the impact on expectations. If you are expecting yours to match the photos - note instead it will be as stated above.

So, other than color, it is the same aircraft (which makes sense) with a few new details such as wing cannon weathering as if previously fired.

So it seems the Sakai Zero paint job doesn’t actually resemble the promo pics.

Can anyone confirm or refute this impression? And was this the case also with the previous PH BadCat exclusive?

Post by **aferguson** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:21 pm

the ijn light grey had a greenish tinge to it, as was brought to light several years ago. The plain light grey never existed except in movies and inaccurate reference books and models. Takes some getting used to for those of us brought up on pale grey zeros and vals. There is still some debate on this but the general concensus is a lightish grey with a green tinge to it. http://hsfeatures.com/a6m2tb_1.htm

The S1 BBI PH zero is quite correct in colour and i assume this one is too.

hworth18 · Post by **hworth18** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:32 pm

aferguson wrote:the ijn light grey had a greenish tinge to it, as was brought to light several years ago. The plain light grey never existed except in movies and inaccurate reference books and models. Takes some getting used to for those of us brought up on pale grey zeros and vals.

The S1 BBI PH zero is quite correct in colour and i assume this one is too.

Aferg is correct, however, I suspect that BBI still didn't get the color correct, as the color should actually be more of an olive color (called Ameiro by the Japanese) as shown on this Zero model owned by a friend of mine.
On a side note, this color is also closely represented on the 21st Century 1/32 Zero.

King O' Fools · Post by **King O' Fools** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:18 pm

Here's an interesting link on this topic showing what appears to be the Sakai Zero painted in an Ameiro tone:

http://www.modelingmadness.com/earlya6mcolors.htm

Dauntless · Post by **Dauntless** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:28 pm

Good! Glad they are just trying to be as authentic as possible.
I always thought the 21st Century 1:32 Zeros had a closer scheme.

I especially liked the way the Zero Ace of Aces Hiroyoshi Nishizawa had the green faded color over this base color.

If you think about it, Zinc Chromate which is close to this color and was painted on the insides of American aircraft to prevent corrosion of the aluminum is close to this color. It also etches the metal and sticks to it (painting bare metal is a no no it won't stick) Depending on which company has made it it varies in shade (I know this as a former car painter dealing with Dupont and other makes) in this case the Japanese had their own mixture I'm sure, which also can be tinted slightly to do double duty as a corrosion protection and camo paint. Not to mention the less paint the lighter the load on the aircraft. This especially from a country who was short of wartime paint materials.

I already have the Pearl Harbor Zero so this one won't look at all like it. I'm happy.

Post by **aferguson** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:59 pm

wow, that's really green. I don''t know if i could live with that, correct or not.

King O' Fools · Post by **King O' Fools** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:19 pm

Another similar variant of IJN "revisionist" greenish grey albeit with less tint:

http://www.modelingmadness.com/scotts/axis/j/a6m2.htm

And the ultimate discussion on "The Zero Colour Conundrum:"

http://www.straggleresearch.com/search? ... +conundrum

I hope someone will post pics of the current production BBI aircraft soon, so we can dispel any doubts about which shade of "grey" this is actually painted.

vmf214 · Post by **vmf214** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:36 pm

A couple good articles. Most of these guys studied actual relics so the speculation is pretty minimal compared to alot of other info I've read elsewhere.

http://j-aircraft.com/research/amerio/out_of_ameiro.htm

http://j-aircraft.com/research/imperial ... y_gray.htm

And info specific to Sakai's bird:

http://j-aircraft.com/research/lansd-77.htm

Also Tamiya has available pretty much the whole spectrum of IJN and IJA colors, taken from actual chip examples.

Zinc chromate would be a disaster dauntless, just say no brother! One thing that I am impressed with Bbi on is they nailed the correct blue-black cowl.

pickelhaube · Post by **pickelhaube** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:06 pm

OK so will it be lt grey or green?

I kind of like the green

Dauntless · Post by **Dauntless** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:57 pm

[/quote] Zinc chromate would be a disaster dauntless, just say no brother! .[/quote]
Yes you are correct. What I'm saying is that it could be a mixture with zinc chromate in it. That could perhaps give it a green hue.
At the same time enabling them to paint it once, etching the aluminum.

I have painted pure Dupont zinc chromate and it looks like it did back in WWII till today.

I have also painted other brands and they are more of a grey-green like the Jap Zero color.

Just a theory. I could be way off base though.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:24 pm

the Fargo Air Museum in ND has a zero

http://travelphotobase.com/s/NDFA.HTM

http://rides.webshots.com/album/192279728VfYFFN

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1192327 ... 3133wBLGDW

Post by **aferguson** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:46 am

if it's like the first PH zero it will be a light, medium grey with a slight greenish tinge. Not as dramatic as in HW's pictures above, more like the pics i posted in my link to the hs forum.

Which is more correct is still being debated...

hworth18 · Post by **hworth18** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:43 am

vmf214 wrote:A couple good articles. Most of these guys studied actual relics so the speculation is pretty minimal compared to alot of other info I've read elsewhere.

http://j-aircraft.com/research/amerio/out_of_ameiro.htm

http://j-aircraft.com/research/imperial ... y_gray.htm

And info specific to Sakai's bird:

http://j-aircraft.com/research/lansd-77.htm

Also Tamiya has available pretty much the whole spectrum of IJN and IJA colors, taken from actual chip examples. Zinc chromate would be a disaster dauntless, just say no brother! One thing that I am impressed with Bbi on is they nailed the correct blue-black cowl.

Jim Lansdale is the founder of the J-aircraft forum and is one of (if not the one) premiere experts on IJN/IJA color specifications and this is where my info came from. The pics of the Zero I posted above was produced by a model builder for Jim's son Chris and is painted to the correct color specifications. These colors were taken from actual aircraft and heavily studied/scrutinized to determine the exact color specifications.
This is a fact whether people want to accept it or not.

Dauntless · Post by **Dauntless** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:10 am

Well, I looked at the one at Badcat and it looks like the same Pearl Harbor Zero off-white to me. Too bad. http://www.badcataviation.com/saze1blboxto.html

Post by **aferguson** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:11 am

so why for so many years were all the experts certain that the colour was the traditional light whitish grey and why after all this time has the truth finally come to light? Seems to me in the immediate post war era and even up to the 60's and 70's there would have been a lot more japanese aircraft around for reference, certainly more than there are now and yet through all that expanse of time, nobody suggested that the light grey was in fact a light olive?

hworth18 · Post by **hworth18** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:23 am

aferguson wrote:so why for so many years were all the experts certain that the colour was the traditional light whitish grey and why after all this time has the truth finally come to light? Seems to me in the immediate post war era and even up to the 60's and 70's there would have been a lot more japanese aircraft around for reference, certainly more than there are now and yet through all that expanse of time, nobody suggested that the light grey was in fact a light olive?

That's a good question Aferg, I think much of it is that when the paint on these planes oxidized, they turned a pale gray color and that is what most people saw when they looked at the aircraft after the war. But that's just speculation on my part. You could always email Jim Lansdale and ask him..
LRAJIM@aol.com

AMERICAN_GRENADIER · Post by **AMERICAN_GRENADIER** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:04 am

all very interesting thanks for the back ground info guys

sicqnus · Post by **sicqnus** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:10 am

A few reference pics. Some model O were also painted orange at this time.

Dauntless · Post by **Dauntless** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:39 am

Nice reference photos sicqnus!
Those pics more closely resemble hworth18's post of the 21st Century Toys 1:32 Zero grey-green.

I think BBI got it wrong again.

hworth18 · Post by **hworth18** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:47 am

Dauntless wrote:Nice reference photos sicqnus!
Those pics more closely resemble hworth18's post of the 21st Century Toys 1:32 Zero grey-green.

I think BBI got it wrong again.

I think BBI painted theirs in the "accepted" colors, if you think about it, would you by a Zero that was olive green? I am betting many people wouldn't.

So many of us grew up watching Tora, tora, Tora, / Midway and Baa Baa Black Sheep where the Zeros were light gray/off white it is the accepted scheme regardless if its right or wrong.

Grilledcheese · Post by **Grilledcheese** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:10 am

I find this matter to be quite fascinating, actually. It demonstrates how easily the most basic details like a heavily-used paint color can be lost or distorted (both literally and figuratively) by the passage of even a historically short span of time. I am led to wonder how much more seemingly common historical information has been lost and how much will be before I'm dead.

Jeffrey

Post by **aferguson** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:32 am

i've got the firs Badcat PH zero and it's pretty green in colour. When i got it i thought it was too dark....i have subsequently changed my mind. It's not quite as dark as the model HW posted, more like the colour in the photos of the real plane...a paler green grey.

I don't know about this new zero but from the review that started this whole thread, i would bet it's the same colour as the first PH zero they did and as such, not really all that bad.

As a follow up to Grilledcheese: nowhere has this been more evident than with luftwaffe and panzer colours. In my lifetime there have been radical revisions to what is 'correct' and then re-revisions after that. The experts claim one thing and then a few years later are claiming something very different. So i've learned to take everything with a bit of a grain of salt.

Personally, i'm still not convinced japanese planes were as dark a green as the pics HW posted. My gut is that it was a lighter shade of greenish hued grey. We'll never know for certain, unless someone invents a time machine, so it's all pretty much conjecture.

Dauntless · Post by **Dauntless** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:47 am

hworth18 wrote:
Dauntless wrote:Nice reference photos sicqnus!
Those pics more closely resemble hworth18's post of the 21st Century Toys 1:32 Zero grey-green.

I think BBI got it wrong again.
I think BBI painted theirs in the "accepted" colors, if you think about it, would you by a Zero that was olive green? I am betting many people wouldn't.
So many of us grew up watching Tora, tora, Tora, / Midway and Baa Baa Black Sheep where the Zeros were light gray/off white it is the accepted scheme regardless if its right or wrong.

Yeah, sensationalism and commercial interests take presidence over historical accuracy.
Oh well, that's why so many here paint their own.

vmf214 · Post by **vmf214** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:09 pm

sicqnus wrote:A few reference pics. Some model O were also painted orange at this time.

Yes training aircraft were orange and let me tell you that the specific shade of "orange" is as much a debate as the gray / olive-gray debate. There was also green over orange schemes as confirmed by surviving japanese pilots that flew them, and solid silver as confirmed by Saburo Sakai himself.

Everyone was too quick to destroy captured weaponry after WW2. In the case of Japanese aircraft relatively few examples were saved by the ATAIU (Allied Technical Air Intelligence Unit) which were primarily US/UK joint evaluation teams with the US Navy being the primary US evaluator. Some of these aircraft the UK had either went to the French or in rare cases back home for museum display, several went to Manchuria, etc., but the largest majority were destroyed. White squares with a green cross over the hino then off to the cutup yard.

Lansdale actually has studied literally hundreds of relics from Japanese aircraft even under varying light conditions so I pretty much trust him to the tee.

Jason of Admiral Toys · Post by **Jason of Admiral Toys** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:57 pm

Here are some photos I used as reference for the Admiral Toys' Zero. I too used the referenced websites above and they led me to the group of guys that restored this aircraft. They write many of the articles on the various websites.

Regards,
Jason