T-34/85 in 1/18 scale cheating to keep the price down

pickelhaube · Post by **pickelhaube** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:54 am

There has been a few guys who have been interested in me doing a t-34/85.
I have always said that it will not be done by me. The reason is this. Trumpeter makes a really nice R/C 1/16 scale T-34. You can get it for less than $100. I have one myself. It is nice and the cost is affordable. For that reason my thinking is this who would pay $300-$450 for a T-34 if you can get a 1/16 for $100 ? But this is not a 1/16 forum it is a 1/18 forum.

If I make the tank I would love to sell it for $100 at that price I know the market would be good. At that price there is no doubt that I could sell over 1,000 of them. But the fact is it will take about 3 days to make a single tank. $33.33 a day wow!!!! You could make twice that working at McDonalds. So $100 a piece will not work.

There are a couple of guys out there who want a 1/18 scale T-34 no matter what the price is. Actually if I do one I have 4-5 of them sold already.

If you go by the sells of the Hun his average customs sell on e-bay for $350-$400. He does minor modifications on his subjects and he sells them for that all day long. Hei s now selling his custom Jagdpanther kit for about $200 this is a good price. Add that to a price of a 21st Panther and you are up to $260-$300 and you have to do the painting and all yourself.

So all of this being said the price of $300-$450 for a scratch built custom made T-34/85 is not that far out of line. Granted $300-$450 is a lot of money . That is a car note.But if you really want one were are you going to get it ? If you make one yourself it will take you a week or more to make it. Maybe even a couple of weeks.

So if you collectors REALLY want a T-34/85 tank in 1/18 this is you way of getting it. I could make it both ways , in kit a to keep the cost down or fully built. The fully built would be more , but the Russians just used standard green so paint would not be as hard like a German camo pattern. If I could get 12 guys to commit , this project could get off of the ground. This project will be a major undertaking.I do not normally do this but a project like this would require a 1/2 deposit . The will be a lot of time in R and D . By doing the deposit will get this project started and make the cost easier for the colletor so it will not be a big chunk all at once.

So I hope this covers all of you guy's questions . Thanks for the PMs on this subject.

I can build it, but will they come ?

Matthew

hotrodrock · Post by **hotrodrock** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:01 am

I do believe that this forum needs to be 1/18-1/16. I know this will probably ruffle some feathers but due to the nearly total lack of new 1/18 armor, I really don't understand the attitude of "1/18 or nothing". Becasue it looks like its going to be very close to nothing. You hit the nail on the head when talking about the price range of 1/16 armor. I just picked up a Matorro 1/16 King Tiger off ebay for $79. The new Jagdpanther has just been released at just a little over $100. Any collector should look at the offerings in 1/16 as compared to 1/18. A 1/16 Puma and kettenkrad are in the works supposed for around 1st qtr. release. There are several different Panzer III's and IV's available and a Stug was recently released (which I will be getting next) If I want to continue to collect armor, I have no choice but to go to 1/16. If members want 1/18 armor or nothing, they are probably going to have to leave the hobby. I have several of every one of the 1/18 releases and am just not interested in more repaints.

You, pickelhaube, will be able to sell all of your models that you have time to make but I think you realize the majority of our members probalby cannot afford to pay the price for your excellant work. I purchased your wirble but I myself cannot afford $300-$400 for a custom T34 when I just picked up a 1/16 trumpeter T34/85 new in the box for $59 (and shipping was $15, not the $40 you usually pay from ebay sellers). I have descent modeling skills (certainly not the fabrication skills that you have) so I can customize my $59 T34 to suit my taste. And that brings up another point in favor of 1/16. There are tons of customizing accessories for 1/16 armor. I will be getting photo etched screens for my new Kt. There will always be a place for excellant customs such as your and I'm not saying that I won't buy something myself from you in the future.

Light.Inf.Scout · Post by **Light.Inf.Scout** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:03 am

I would have loved a T 34 in 1/18 but picked up the 1/16 a couple months back.

hotrodrock · Post by **hotrodrock** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:09 am

I might add that even though all of the 1/16 armor I have are RC, I have never ran even one of them. I want them as static models. Thats why I am not interested in joining radio control forums since that is not the aspect of 1/16 that I am interested in. I'm sure there are members who are thinking why don't they go over to where the 1/16 models are.

GooglyDoogly · Post by **GooglyDoogly** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:36 am

IMHO pickelhaube, I think you're better off doing something else. Maybe another Soviet armor.

Although I totally agree with you that a $300-$400 for a 1/18 T-34/85 model would be a fair price, I doubt you'd sell many.

I mean, this is a hobby where people balk at a gorgeous $80 shipped, 1/18 88mm.

We rarely put our money where our mouths are. So even though people here are like, "YEAH! I WANT A 1/18th T-34!! BRING IT ON!"

But once it's built, I bet many would find a reason not to buy one. Like, "Oh I'd totally buy one, if it's the right shade or Russian green."

And if you think about it, 21st's 1/18 figures are bordering on being 1/16-scale already. Maybe not in the overall height, but certainly in proportions.

That's why 1/18 figures looks so good in 1/16 tanks. Especially when they're riding in it.

King O' Fools · Post by **King O' Fools** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:44 pm

GooglyDoogly wrote:IMHO pickelhaube, I think you're better off doing something else. Maybe another Soviet armor.

Although I totally agree with you that a $300-$400 for a 1/18 T-34/85 model would be a fair price, I doubt you'd sell many.

I mean, this is a hobby where people balk at a gorgeous $80 shipped, 1/18 88mm.

We rarely put our money where our mouths are. So even though people here are like, "YEAH! I WANT A 1/18th T-34!! BRING IT ON!"

But once it's built, I bet many would find a reason not to buy one. Like, "Oh I'd totally buy one, if it's the right shade or Russian green."

And if you think about it, 21st's 1/18 figures are bordering on being 1/16-scale already. Maybe not in the overall height, but certainly in proportions.

That's why 1/18 figures looks so good in 1/16 tanks. Especially when they're riding in it.

Nice strawman there, GD.

Of course you'd buy a 1/18 scale pink Spitfire in a heartbeat if 21st were to release one tomorrow. I know you would. Not. Since this seems to be a resurrection of the "you have to support 21st no-matter-what" meme, let me quote my answer to you, again:

But I’d gladly pay $80 for a grey 88 (especially since there doesn’t seem to be many QC issues with this model).

What I’m not considering is buying one (at that price or even lower) which I then have to repaint because 21st (for whatever reason) has a notion to release what’s probably the least popular scheme first. If they make their bed, they should sleep on it.

Sorry for the OT. And now, back to our regular programming...

hotrodrock · Post by **hotrodrock** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:37 pm

The 1/16 KT I just got came with one figure cut off at the waist to ride in the turret hatch. I put it next to a 21st 1/18 figure and there was absolutely no size difference what so ever (hope to post some pics soon). The figures that come with FOV 1/16 tanks are difinitely larger than the 21st 1/18 figs.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:51 pm

I do have a problem with combining 1/16 and 1/18th figures...when I compered the 1/16th figures from the 007 tiger 1 and those of 21st or even Bravo team...there is a big difference....now it can all be perspective........ since I display my FOV tanks above the eye level I notice it...but as soon as I display them lower then my eye level they look alright.......there is a big difference its like having full grown men standing next to 14 years old....

GooglyDoogly · Post by **GooglyDoogly** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:47 pm

VMF115 wrote:I do have a problem with combining 1/16 and 1/18th figures...when I compered the 1/16th figures from the 007 tiger 1 and those of 21st or even Bravo team...there is a big difference....now it can all be perspective........ since I display my FOV tanks above the eye level I notice it...but as soon as I display them lower then my eye level they look alright.......there is a big difference its like having full grown men standing next to 14 years old....

Actually, the FOV figs looks more like 1/15th figures, compared against the 1/15th Verlinden figures, and 1/16th Tamiya figures.

Even the FOV tank commander looks to be too big in FOV's own King Tiger tank!

The one exception was the Michael Wittmann on the Tiger 222. He's a perfect 1/16th scale figure. And if you put that figure against some FOV "1/16th" figures, he looks positively tiny!

GooglyDoogly · Post by **GooglyDoogly** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:51 pm

King O' Fools wrote:
GooglyDoogly wrote:IMHO pickelhaube, I think you're better off doing something else. Maybe another Soviet armor.

Although I totally agree with you that a $300-$400 for a 1/18 T-34/85 model would be a fair price, I doubt you'd sell many.

I mean, this is a hobby where people balk at a gorgeous $80 shipped, 1/18 88mm.

We rarely put our money where our mouths are. So even though people here are like, "YEAH! I WANT A 1/18th T-34!! BRING IT ON!"

But once it's built, I bet many would find a reason not to buy one. Like, "Oh I'd totally buy one, if it's the right shade or Russian green."

And if you think about it, 21st's 1/18 figures are bordering on being 1/16-scale already. Maybe not in the overall height, but certainly in proportions.

That's why 1/18 figures looks so good in 1/16 tanks. Especially when they're riding in it.
Nice strawman there, GD.

Of course you'd buy a 1/18 scale pink Spitfire in a heartbeat if 21st were to release one tomorrow. I know you would. Not. Since this seems to be a resurrection of the "you have to support 21st no-matter-what" meme, let me quote my answer to you, again:

But I’d gladly pay $80 for a grey 88 (especially since there doesn’t seem to be many QC issues with this model).

What I’m not considering is buying one (at that price or even lower) which I then have to repaint because 21st (for whatever reason) has a notion to release what’s probably the least popular scheme first. If they make their bed, they should sleep on it.
Sorry for the OT. And now, back to our regular programming...

LOL!!!

A bit defensive, aren't we...

Anyways. Pickel, maybe you can make a JS-2? Or how about a modern armor? Something that hasn't been covered yet.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:56 pm

But Michael Wittmann was a short guy in real life......

scbvideoboy · Post by **scbvideoboy** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:05 pm

The tracks are always the biggest pain to make, how were you thinking about those?

I would suggest a British Centurion in 1/18, but again the tracks are the issue as we would reguire them to move and be flexible.

I'm actually think of a 1/12 Centurion I can build out of aluminum on the lathe and mill. The tracks, sproket and turret casting would be issues.

1/12 would go with my 1/12 car/diecast collection.

I think a complete ground up build, cast, moulds, etc... is a huge deal, not to be taken on lightly.

DH

1958Zelda · Post by **1958Zelda** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:45 pm

Count me for two.

pickelhaube · Post by **pickelhaube** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:45 pm

scbvideoboy wrote:The tracks are always the biggest pain to make, how were you thinking about those?

I would suggest a British Centurion in 1/18, but again the tracks are the issue as we would reguire them to move and be flexible.

I'm actually think of a 1/12 Centurion I can build out of aluminum on the lathe and mill. The tracks, sproket and turret casting would be issues.

1/12 would go with my 1/12 car/diecast collection.

I think a complete ground up build, cast, moulds, etc... is a huge deal, not to be taken on lightly.

DH

Yes you are right a complete armor build from the ground up should not be taken lightly. This will be the seecond one. The first was done by a guy who made another piece of Russian armor. It was some kind of tank destroyer. It sold for for over $350 for the kit. He also built it about 5 years ago. This project is bigger due to the turret. So this is world shaking stuff in the 1/18 XD world.

Working tracks ehhh.... no..
Do you know how hard it will be to make working tracks? You can get a metal set for the Tamiya Tiger at $250 for a set of white metal ones. Resin would not hold up.I guess you could add that to the total price. Tracks will always will be the hardest part of any custom piece of armor. Then the running gear.

Zelda you were counted in the 4-5 already sold if I make 'em.

Any other takers ? This could be the only chance to get a T-34 in 1/18 scale .

hotrodrock · Post by **hotrodrock** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:01 pm

You can get metal tracks for the T34 for around $80. Maybe a little cheaper if you shop real hard.

pickelhaube · Post by **pickelhaube** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:05 pm

hotrodrock wrote:You can get metal tracks for the T34 for around $80. Maybe a little cheaper if you shop real hard.

1/16 scale

Birddog · Post by **Birddog** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:16 pm

pickelhaube wrote:
scbvideoboy wrote:The tracks are always the biggest pain to make, how were you thinking about those?

I would suggest a British Centurion in 1/18, but again the tracks are the issue as we would reguire them to move and be flexible.

I'm actually think of a 1/12 Centurion I can build out of aluminum on the lathe and mill. The tracks, sproket and turret casting would be issues.

1/12 would go with my 1/12 car/diecast collection.

I think a complete ground up build, cast, moulds, etc... is a huge deal, not to be taken on lightly.

DH
Yes you are right a complete armor build from the ground up should not be taken lightly. This will be the seecond one. The first was done by a guy who made another piece of Russian armor. It was some kind of tank destroyer. It sold for for over $350 for the kit. He also built it about 5 years ago. This project is bigger due to the turret. So this is world shaking stuff in the 1/18 XD world.

Working tracks ehhh.... no..
Do you know how hard it will be to make working tracks? You can get a metal set for the Tamiya Tiger at $250 for a set of white metal ones. Resin would not hold up.I guess you could add that to the total price. Tracks will always will be the hardest part of any custom piece of armor. Then the running gear.

Zelda you were counted in the 4-5 already sold if I make 'em.

Any other takers ? This could be the only chance to get a T-34 in 1/18 scale .

Yep. That guy made a JS-3 to go alongside 21st's M48. Supposedly there were only 50 kit made in the world. I picked one up over a year ago. The tracks do not work. They are many individual track links that you have to piece together. I haven't had time to put it together yet other than the pieces that will fit together by basically snapping them in place. It is a pretty cool looking piece although obscure. I think a few other members here have one as well.

hotrodrock · Post by **hotrodrock** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:57 pm

Sorry, thought you were talking about a 1/16 Tamiya Tiger. You are correct sir, they certainly won't work on a 1/18.

paulpratt · Post by **paulpratt** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:46 am

Birddog wrote: Yep. That guy made a JS-3 to go alongside 21st's M48. Supposedly there were only 50 kit made in the world. I picked one up over a year ago. The tracks do not work. They are many individual track links that you have to piece together. I haven't had time to put it together yet other than the pieces that will fit together by basically snapping them in place. It is a pretty cool looking piece although obscure. I think a few other members here have one as well.

Couldn't the tracks be done in this manner? You could create a single track piece that would link together with a piece of metal that we could just go buy at home depot to help keep the costs down. One mold and just mold and remold to make enough to create the tread.

Does that make sense? Or am i just acting childish?

pickelhaube · Post by **pickelhaube** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:16 pm

paulpratt wrote:
Birddog wrote: Yep. That guy made a JS-3 to go alongside 21st's M48. Supposedly there were only 50 kit made in the world. I picked one up over a year ago. The tracks do not work. They are many individual track links that you have to piece together. I haven't had time to put it together yet other than the pieces that will fit together by basically snapping them in place. It is a pretty cool looking piece although obscure. I think a few other members here have one as well.
Couldn't the tracks be done in this manner? You could create a single track piece that would link together with a piece of metal that we could just go buy at home depot to help keep the costs down. One mold and just mold and remold to make enough to create the tread.

Does that make sense? Or am i just acting childish?

No this is a good question.It will take about 30 mins to cast a single track. It will take 30 mins to cast a link of 20. It takes 30 mins to cast a link of 85.

So it would take 85 hrs to cast a compeat set of tracks doing one at a time. It would take 1 hr to cast a compleat set of tracks if they are linked together. Providing the tracks has 85 links per side. You could cast several singles at a time but that is a lot of RTV and a lot more work.

pickelhaube · Post by **pickelhaube** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:32 am

Well there was only ONE guy who actualy wanted a T-34 or maybe two.

I have an idea. I have a couple of Trumpeter T-34s . One is a kit and the other is a built up R/C. The kit was twice the money the r/C kit was. Go figure. Anyway. I have the Trump T-34 it has rubber tracks 1/16 scale is bigger than 1/18 , but if I take the tracks and cut them down the middel and glue them back together and cast them. This will cut down on about 95% of the track work. THIS WILL NOT BE TRUE SCALE BUT BY THINNING THEM OUT IT MAY GET US WERE WE GOT TO GO.

The width of the tracks is about 3/16 between the 2 sizes. You can see that difference. the other was is about 3/32. There is no way to see that by the eye.

Also if I were to use something like MDS board for the body for this tank or any other tank. That will cut down on the resin and give the tank strength.

By doing this I could probably cut about $100 off of the cost of this tank.

Is there more than one guy who would want a T-34 in 1/18 scale ?

Comments ?

Post by **aferguson** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:41 am

i was going to suggest using the trumpeter tracks but i thought i'd get boo-ed, so i didn't say anything. I think using them will be fine. Anything that lowers the price. As you know, i want a T-34 but the price has to be lower for me to commit.

Another idea might be to make each side of the running gear as one big piece, rather than cast individual wheels...sort of like the cheap toy tanks do. Since the tank wont be able to roll anyway i don't see that it matters and it may cut down on work/materials......not sure.

pickelhaube · Post by **pickelhaube** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:50 am

aferguson wrote:i was going to suggest using the trumpeter tracks but i thought i'd get boo-ed, so i didn't say anything. I think using them will be fine. Anything that lowers the price. As you know, i want a T-34 but the price has to be lower for me to commit.

Another idea might be to make each side of the running gear as one big piece, rather than cast individual wheels...sort of like the cheap toy tanks do. Since the tank wont be able to roll anyway i don't see that it matters and it may cut down on work/materials......not sure.

Independant wheels are the way to go. The good thing is that there are not a lot of them. So now we are in the $200-$300 IF THIS IDEA WORKS.

General Blasto · Post by **General Blasto** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:33 pm

Hey PH,
I might be intrested in a couple T-34s in 1/18

The problem for some 1/18th folks is and that is, some of us model battles with opposing tanks on a battlefield dio usually in close quarters. So if you have a 1/18th Tiger or Panther driving by a disabled T-34 for example, the T-34 will DWARF the Tiger and the whole scene would be Wrong, wrong, wrong

Just wouldn't look right. For those who collect and leave the models on the shelf, not a problem

Now I too have looked at the T-34 and the body looks kinda like a backwards Panther body. Turret is different of course and the tracks, wheels, etc. But that's as far as I got. I have one Panther to chop up and I'm afraid it's being converted to a early production Jadgtiger. I've already compared notes with Da Hun on it. So that's my next tank endevor after the SDkfz 7/1 and the Caffees I'm building. Actually, I'd rather(at this time) model the Eastern front with a ton of Russian conscripts doing a suicide blitz against my Panthers and Tigers

Besides my kitty tanks get pretty hungry too and need lots of meat to feed them

Da General

pickelhaube · Post by **pickelhaube** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:58 pm

General Blasto wrote:Hey PH,
I might be intrested in a couple T-34s in 1/18

The problem for some 1/18th folks is and that is, some of us model battles with opposing tanks on a battlefield dio usually in close quarters. So if you have a 1/18th Tiger or Panther driving by a disabled T-34 for example, the T-34 will DWARF the Tiger and the whole scene would be Wrong, wrong, wrong Just wouldn't look right. For those who collect and leave the models on the shelf, not a problem Now I too have looked at the T-34 and the body looks kinda like a backwards Panther body. Turret is different of course and the tracks, wheels, etc. But that's as far as I got. I have one Panther to chop up and I'm afraid it's being converted to a early production Jadgtiger. I've already compared notes with Da Hun on it. So that's my next tank endevor after the SDkfz 7/1 and the Caffees I'm building. Actually, I'd rather(at this time) model the Eastern front with a ton of Russian conscripts doing a suicide blitz against my Panthers and Tigers Besides my kitty tanks get pretty hungry too and need lots of meat to feed them

Da General

Making a Jagdtiger or was that a typo?