Opinions on the Kounoike Zero

ExC17load · Post by **ExC17load** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:09 pm

Does anyone have an opinion about this particular aircraft? Since BadCat doesnt have any history of the plane on their website, I dont know much about it. Also, BadCat states that this is a European Exclusive. How exclusive is it? Is this a good one to buy and add to the collection? Just curious and any thoughts would be appreciated.

Dauntless · Post by **Dauntless** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:48 pm

Don't know much about it, but while they are on sale I would buy at least one. We all know what happens to these limited run aircraft once they are sold out. And BCA is the only place you can get it.

ExC17load · Post by **ExC17load** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:03 pm

Ok. I know we all know about not getting them while we can, but I wasnt sure how exclusive it really was. Sometimes they say that just to justify the price or to get people to buy them quicker.

vmf214 · Post by **vmf214** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:16 pm

Not very exlusive, a couple Hong Kong dealers have been peddling them for awhile now plus Historic Aviation and a couple other online etailers. It may have started a "Euro" exclusive but it definitely isn't one now.

ExC17load · Post by **ExC17load** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:21 pm

Interesting. Thanks for the information.

Dauntless · Post by **Dauntless** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:39 pm

After your post I was curious about the Kounoike Flying Group.

What little I could find with the "too many results" Google search, was that near the end of the war it was a Kamikaze outfit with a base called Kounoike Naval Air Base.

By then the Zero was obsolete compared to the newer aircraft Japan was making, so it was used a lot for suicide missions, along with Betty's loaded with the "Cherry Blossom" Baka bombs flying out of Kounoike.

Don't know the exact location, but it's on the Japanese islands.

So I would think this version (glad I only bought one btw) is a Kamikaze version. I could be wrong. Anybody else got any historical info on this?

ExC17load · Post by **ExC17load** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:01 pm

Well I certainly appreciate you sharing your research. I wasnt able to find anything about the group, but now its an interesting thought and would make a cool addition to the fleet. To me, its part of the appeal of this hobby is finding out as much as I can about each airplane. I add it to a data base for each of the planes. This just spreads the appeal of the collecting to more than just adding another one.

Thanks again!

lightning2000 · Post by **lightning2000** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:15 pm

Hi,
Most often the reason why you cant find information on an item such as this is due to a misspelling. Check here for further information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_A6M_Zero_operators

Scroll down to "Konoike" for further details. The actual unit that flew this plane was therefore called the "KONOIKE KOKUTAI."

Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.net

vmf214 · Post by **vmf214** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:43 pm

Lightning is correct, the spelling is off and it is in fact KONOIKE. I couldn't remember for sure so went to some of my old books. It was located near Ibaraki prefecture, best my wife can remember it is south of Tokyo near Osaka. In 1944 it became the primary home of the 721st Kokutai and was primarily a transitional training unit. Soon it became the hq for the "shin rai" program...Ohka's as previously mentioned. I have some pics of some of the aircraft on the ground in Konoike. It was also referred to as "Gonoike" (God's pond) but I can't remember which came first...

Folkwulfe · Post by **Folkwulfe** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:51 pm

Lightening2000 is correct....the proper name is Konoike Kokutai. The naval airbase at Konoike is located in the mid-eastern seaboard of the main island of Honshu and was the base for an operational training unit for naval aviation. Their main aircraft were A6M2, A6M3, A6M5a and the A6M5K (two seater) in training mode. A6M2 and A6M5 aircrafter were used later in the "Divine Wind" attacks. Some references are referring to them as the Konoike Flying Group because several of the training units (Betty and Ohka included) were used in kamakazi attacks as the war progressed and the American fleets came closer. On one occassion, 18 Betty's and their Ohka's with Zeke escorts were intercepted by F6F Hellcats too far for the Ohka's to reach the fleet. Even though the escorts tried to stop them, the F6F's succeeded in forcing the Betty's to drop their Ohka's into the sea....and downed every one of the Betty's trying to run. Nearly all of the escorts were also downed....such was the state of Japanese flight expertise at the time.

Dauntless · Post by **Dauntless** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:25 pm

No wonder. Thanks guys.

Like ExC17load, I too want to know the history behind each plane and it's paint scheme.
They should be putting these little history lessons on the box. Well they kinda do on the 32X planes little corner labels.

Obviously Bad Cat doesn't know about their misspelling.

ExC17load · Post by **ExC17load** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:31 am

Thanks to everyone concerning the history updates. Thats why I always followed this forum. If you cant find the answer here, it doesnt exist.

vmf214 · Post by **vmf214** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:06 pm

Yeah I really don't know why they chose this scheme. If the intended representation was a Kamikaze then a bomb would've been a nice addition.

ExC17load · Post by **ExC17load** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:38 pm

Good point. The drop tank is nice and all, but the ability to change things up would be nice. BBi did it with their Mustangs, I dont see why they couldnt have done it with the Zero.

ExC17load · Post by **ExC17load** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:40 pm

Im just really bummed the Solomons Zero fizzled. Now THAT was a good scheme!

The replacement is alright, but very close to the DDay Zero with the white color.

vmf214 · Post by **vmf214** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:49 pm

I think they said the Solomon's Zeke is still to come, just later in 09. I love the "field" applied schemes on Zero's especially the fact they did it both with spray and/or brush.

ExC17load · Post by **ExC17load** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:58 pm

Yeah it was awesome looking, which is why I liked it so much. Thats truly realistic. I have my fingers crossed!

Folkwulfe · Post by **Folkwulfe** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:29 pm

When I first got the BC special "Akagi" Zeke, the first thing I noticed was the factory fresh paint scheme.....so I did alot of reading and discovered a few things about the way Zekes were painted. Most land-based Zekes were not primed before camo paint was applied. Furthermore, most aircraft carrier Zekes were primed and painted in order to stop corrossion at sea. That's why alot of actual photos show alot of bar metal showing through the camo on all land-based Zekes. Camo paint was pretty much up to the pilots and ground crews as the war progressed and only the ace's aircraft received "special treatment" in the care of the paint. In front of the applied tail number are two letters (normally) that tell what kind of unit the aircraft belonged to. The tail number (three Arabic numbers) was NOT a serial number, but the aircraft number in that squadron or group. So..."AK" stood for the carrier Akagi and 117 was the the 117th aircraft of the carrier wing....and so on. Since the BC special was one of the first Zekes downed at Pearl Harbor, the aircraft would have good paint and, being new, would not have been worn very much before it's shoot-down. A little exhaust staining, very little gun blast staining, and a little bar metal around the engine cowling and wing walks...VIOLA! More realistic and fairly easy to do. I have the general release green Zeke too....maybe a heavily weathered Army type Zeke would be in order...?

B-29 · Post by **B-29** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:16 pm

vmf214 wrote:Not very exlusive, a couple Hong Kong dealers have been peddling them for awhile now plus Historic Aviation and a couple other online etailers. It may have started a "Euro" exclusive but it definitely isn't one now.

This is because Historic Aviation distributes to MTS, BCA, and other online e tailers. Anything exclusive to them is exlusive to historic, even AT's upcoming dauntless..

ExC17load · Post by **ExC17load** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:21 pm

Folkwulfe wrote:When I first got the BC special "Akagi" Zeke, the first thing I noticed was the factory fresh paint scheme.....so I did alot of reading and discovered a few things about the way Zekes were painted. Most land-based Zekes were not primed before camo paint was applied. Furthermore, most aircraft carrier Zekes were primed and painted in order to stop corrossion at sea. That's why alot of actual photos show alot of bar metal showing through the camo on all land-based Zekes. Camo paint was pretty much up to the pilots and ground crews as the war progressed and only the ace's aircraft received "special treatment" in the care of the paint. In front of the applied tail number are two letters (normally) that tell what kind of unit the aircraft belonged to. The tail number (three Arabic numbers) was NOT a serial number, but the aircraft number in that squadron or group. So..."AK" stood for the carrier Akagi and 117 was the the 117th aircraft of the carrier wing....and so on. Since the BC special was one of the first Zekes downed at Pearl Harbor, the aircraft would have good paint and, being new, would not have been worn very much before it's shoot-down. A little exhaust staining, very little gun blast staining, and a little bar metal around the engine cowling and wing walks...VIOLA! More realistic and fairly easy to do. I have the general release green Zeke too....maybe a heavily weathered Army type Zeke would be in order...?

Thanks Folkwulfe for the information. Now that you say it, it does make a lot of sense. The land based aircraft always did look beat up, while the Navy planes seemed to be in better condition. Now I know why. Awesome.

Dauntless · Post by **Dauntless** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:32 pm

Folkwulfe wrote:When I first got the BC special "Akagi" Zeke, the first thing I noticed was the factory fresh paint scheme.....so I did alot of reading and discovered a few things about the way Zekes were painted. Most land-based Zekes were not primed before camo paint was applied. Furthermore, most aircraft carrier Zekes were primed and painted in order to stop corrossion at sea. That's why alot of actual photos show alot of bar metal showing through the camo on all land-based Zekes. Camo paint was pretty much up to the pilots and ground crews as the war progressed and only the ace's aircraft received "special treatment" in the care of the paint. In front of the applied tail number are two letters (normally) that tell what kind of unit the aircraft belonged to. The tail number (three Arabic numbers) was NOT a serial number, but the aircraft number in that squadron or group. So..."AK" stood for the carrier Akagi and 117 was the the 117th aircraft of the carrier wing....and so on. Since the BC special was one of the first Zekes downed at Pearl Harbor, the aircraft would have good paint and, being new, would not have been worn very much before it's shoot-down. A little exhaust staining, very little gun blast staining, and a little bar metal around the engine cowling and wing walks...VIOLA! More realistic and fairly easy to do. I have the general release green Zeke too....maybe a heavily weathered Army type Zeke would be in order...?

TKO211 did one of what you are talking about in the customs and mods forum from a PH Zero.
(scroll down)
viewtopic.php?t=13746

Folkwulfe · Post by **Folkwulfe** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:50 pm

Exactly...TKO's bird is a perfect example. However, I goofed....it's "AI" for Akagi!!!

vmf214 · Post by **vmf214** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:23 pm

The first digits in the alpha-numeric tail code isn't always letters ie the 802nd's first 2 was "A1".

According to documentation from Mitsubishi and Nakajima all Zero's were primed as a natural part of the manufacturing process to the end of the war so it doesn't matter what branch the plane went to. Plus a carrier based fighter has one advantage a land based plane didn't have...a hangar deck, out of the elements. 99% of any land based Japanese aircraft on the islands didn't have hangar's, rarely even so much as a quonset hut so they were left outside in the elements constantly. Paint quality ain't the issue either as their paint was just a good as anyone's. Based on all my research the reasoning for alot of Zero's having chipped and peeled paint is basically attributed to lack of concern by the ground crews and the commands. Their primary concern was flyability and fightability, both of which are unaffected by a pretty paint job. Plus often then not when a plane did have it's chips and peels painted over it wasn't even the same shade of green and/or gray. Seaplanes were also always primered but still experienced high levels of peeling and chipping. I'd say basically coz, well, it's a seaplane! Salt water bashing an aircraft doing 60 knots to take off has gotta be hell on anything! Also corrosion factors on land are pretty much right up there as at sea in the south pacific. 2 years on Guam I can attest to that. The camo splotch patterns was a defensive pattern and actually a directive came down for them to be painted that way. Neglected aircraft regardless of who assigned displayed eventually massive peeling, sometimes due to lack of primer (except with the Zero's), sometimes due to neglect, often both.

Folkwulfe · Post by **Folkwulfe** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:27 pm

Not to argue the point (much), but according to documentation I found (some from Nakajima) most aircraft were produced rapidly and sent to front line units as fast as they could be. Early in the war and pre-war, aircraft were prepared and primed. But, as the attrition rate increased, the need for production aircraft to be assemble and staged meant short cuts. Most aircraft were "treated", but not primed and painted until they reached assemble areas where final tweaks were applied to the basic airframe. Installation of specialized or updated equipment was also accomplished here at staging depots. Once the aircraft departed for their assigned areas of operation, the paint upkeep got worse. As aircraft were moved around, their overall schemes changed from naval greys to land based greens and greys....and back again. In the haste, most aircraft did not receive a primer coat and the color coats suffered from poor bonding. True, field conditions advanced the wear and tear, and most aircraft didn't get TLC for their appearance. However, if you look at wartime photos, American aircraft were operating in the same theatre under the same conditions all the war through and did not suffer the same peeling and bare metal. Alot of the colors faded, but that was due to the darker pigments and stunning sunshine in the whole area. Very few American aircraft show the amount of wear and tear as was common with most Japanese aircraft, particularly land based aircraft. The lack of proper prep of the surface of aircraft and the lack of a bonding primer coat are the most common culprits when aircraft appear to be "sand blasted" like this.