beating the drum on this one again...F-100d

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:40 pm

I would love to have a 1/18 f-100d with is this amount of detail from 21st.

I hope one day we will se this A/C made in 1/18 with this kind of detail thats.... cheap....some day...I dream...sigh.

B24guy · Post by **B24guy** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:44 pm

Yes, I am with you 100%. I love "The Hun". It is one big brute of a machine. This would be one of the coolest 18th scale planes they could make.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:46 pm

It would have to have this kind of detail,

Black_Dragon_One · Post by **Black_Dragon_One** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:12 am

I too would buy one in a heart beat...

pickelhaube · Post by **pickelhaube** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:49 am

VMF115 wrote:It would have to have this kind of detail,

We will NEVER see a production 1/18 scale anything with that much detail.

olifant · Post by **olifant** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:42 am

VMF, this thing is a beauty but right now I would be happy to see a KT! It is a nice pipe dream though...

vmf214 · Post by **vmf214** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:56 am

That could be done, retail would only be about $2500...ha. Just compare that to the price of gas in a year or so and it is....cheap.

Tinman · Post by **Tinman** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:35 am

F-100 would be great! I'd like all of the Century series planes. At least we have the F-104....

forcerecon85 · Post by **forcerecon85** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:20 pm

Beautiful! You won't find that detail on $80 1:72 planes though. I could see it selling for $150-$200 though especially in these harder times.

dcmacharlie · Post by **dcmacharlie** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 6:53 pm

Had the pleasure of working on those in Viet Nam had to look close to remember the things that the bird had, would really like to see one in 1/18 scale would be another one that would be nice to have after they come out with the F-4 (yea right) they also had cartrige starts and most of the time thats how we would start them, real cool to see them all lined up and smoke coming out of each stall

FieroDude · Post by **FieroDude** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:07 pm

I doubt we will ever see anything close to that level of detail in a "mass market" piece. From a company like hph, sure, but at hph prices. And I doubt there are too many on this board ready and able to pony up $3500+ for a plane. I suspect we could see something with detail comparable to the F-104 or Me-262 for under $200, if 21st decided to make one.

Speaking of which: now that we have seen what happened to pricing on the KT, Panther, and 88 (essentially doubled), have we seen any of the "new" pricing on aircraft yet? Will the next generation of 1/18 aircraft average $100-125 for WWII fighters, and closer to $150-200 for Avenger or P-38 sized aircraft? We have already seen the price jump to $120 on the bbi F-16/F-18, which I actually consider very reasonable (a 20% increase in 4 years is not bad at all--if we had that for gas, we'd still be paying under $2 a gallon), but haven't seen if the 60%+ 21st price hike will be across the board or not.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:19 pm

FieroDude I have to disagree with you, as this market grows…..slowly but surely we will see more enter the market and will offer a much greater level of detail, comparable to the 1/32 F-100 but in 1/18th. Think 5-10 years from now not next year…….this hobby is still young enough for more growth,,,just look every time something new comes out, the level of detail increase a bit at no real extra cost. Just look at the bbi me-109 that is coming out.

This market has not found the appropriate level of detail that the vast number is happy with, why I say that..... they keep pushing it a little bit each time. Me thinks that who ever has better quality , more detail at a good price will establish them selves as the dominate in the 1/18th field.

If it means new comers entering the fry then so be it. Competition is not a bad thing we the consumers will win out.

Also there will be those that do price themselves out of the market as well…cough cough.. Air strike toys short term ok long term not so good.

FieroDude If you are right then this hobby will die. The companies have to reach out to new customers and not just the old ones, and some of them are into detail.

I have been to a few model shows and the one thing that people say is not enough detail for something that big. They say where is the BEEF. They consider them novelties and that’s it. However if they where detailed like this F-100 many would collect them like car collectors collect 1/18 die cast, also the packaging would have to changed to allow people to repakage them to rotate their collections.

FieroDude · Post by **FieroDude** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:08 pm

As someone who used to collect 1/18 diecast models, I watched the industry go through a similar evolution. In the beginning, the only real mass market source was Italy's bburago, and they had decent models with moderate detail for about $20. As the niche grew, they improved their detail with only slight price increases, and other companies began to step in at somewhat higher price points, with better detail or limited edition pieces, companies like Ertl and Revell, and later, Hot Wheels, when they bought the license to do Ferrari. And a few, like Kyosho, began making well-detailed models for around $70-100. And there were some very nice handbuilts with exquisite detail, for those willing to pony up $400 or more. I don't know if bburago is even around anymore, but most of the others are, along with many new companies--and their levels of detail for the respective price point hasn't really changed much. And the hobby is still around--just the whole pricing scale has shifted upwards.

Added detail means a bigger investment in design, tooling, assembly, and painting. And adding detail results in an exponential increase in assembly and tooling complexity. For example: you can mold a lot of detail into an aircraft engine. But if you want to start adding hoses, wiring, etc., or parts like moving/functional struts, you take a 2-piece engine and turn it into what could quickly become a 20 or 50 piece engine that takes much longer to assemble, and is made of far more different materials and components that must be sourced, inventoried, and managed. And, for most manufacturers, QC'd. The more compexity, the more that can go wrong.

Adding competition to the industry does help keep prices down, or it may encourage better products for minimal price increases. FOV came on board with the lower price approach, but with a minimalist approach on detail. Their models look great--just don't try opening the hatches or looking under the hood, which is fine for the price range they are in. 21st started listening to our requests for more detail. As a result, the cost has progressively gone up (I won't count the WM pricing on many products, which was kept artificially low by contract), and will continue to do so, both to cover material and labor costs.

However, no company will produce a product that they have to sell at a loss, at least not if they expect to stay in business--and I don't see how a company can produce a 1/18 model with super high levels of detail for $50 or even $100 and turn enough of a profit to produce more. In the case of the F-100 model you showed: was it pre-built and pre-painted? Or was it a kit? If it was a kit, what was the cost of the paint and glue? And how many hours did it take to assemble and paint it? if you built it, what is your time worth? Even if it was hand-built in China, the labor isn't free--although it is a fraction of the cost it is here, although that too is increasing rapidly.

Higher prices won't kill our hobby. It might reduce the number of buyers if everyone jacks up prices, and maybe shift the demographics--Ferrari has been around for over 50 years, and they never worried about competing with Ford (except a little GT40 spat in the 60's) or Yugo. Can everyone afford one? No. But some people can--and as long as people can, they will build cars. Personally, i would love to see someone come into the industry producing nicely detailed models intended for collectors in a suitable price range, maybe $250-$400. Let the existing companies choose where they want to fall into the matrix. And keep in mind, we WILL see progressive price increases, simply due to inflation.

Like I said above: higher prices won't kill our hobby. But a lack of innovation will. While I herald bbi's courage for releasing a better Me-109, I won't buy one. There are too many other worthwhile subjects out there that no one has done yet. I haven't picked up anything 1/18 since around Christmas--and even then it was just a couple figures. Simply put, why should I? How many variations on a Sherman or Tiger or Mustang do I need? I am looking forward to the Dauntless, the Stryker, the Spad, and maybe someday (please?!?!?) an A-10. But not another Mustang, Corsair, Abrams, or Sherman. Or yet another repaint of an Me-109G.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:16 pm

I can live with the 200-400 range in price for a nicely done detailed aircraft…like the 1/32 scale trumpeter F-100

It's not mine I just lifted the image off of some website.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:37 pm

olifant · Post by **olifant** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:54 pm

Good points FD. I think most of us would be willing to pay a few hundred bucks for a really nicely detailed jet. The BBI Hornet and Falcon at $120 is reasonable in my book, and this is a generation of tooling old. Of course I won't be buying a $200 model each month, but would spring for two or three each year.

To be honest, I would probably be happier with really detailed models than more Razorback/P40 quality planes hanging from the rafters.

To your point VMF, BBI looks to have done a tremendous job with the 109 at a decent price point. This should make us all hopeful.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:08 am

Its a good start olifant.

Birddog · Post by **Birddog** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:59 am

FieroDude wrote:As someone who used to collect 1/18 diecast models, I watched the industry go through a similar evolution. In the beginning, the only real mass market source was Italy's bburago, and they had decent models with moderate detail for about $20. As the niche grew, they improved their detail with only slight price increases, and other companies began to step in at somewhat higher price points, with better detail or limited edition pieces, companies like Ertl and Revell, and later, Hot Wheels, when they bought the license to do Ferrari. And a few, like Kyosho, began making well-detailed models for around $70-100. And there were some very nice handbuilts with exquisite detail, for those willing to pony up $400 or more. I don't know if bburago is even around anymore, but most of the others are, along with many new companies--and their levels of detail for the respective price point hasn't really changed much. And the hobby is still around--just the whole pricing scale has shifted upwards.

Added detail means a bigger investment in design, tooling, assembly, and painting. And adding detail results in an exponential increase in assembly and tooling complexity. For example: you can mold a lot of detail into an aircraft engine. But if you want to start adding hoses, wiring, etc., or parts like moving/functional struts, you take a 2-piece engine and turn it into what could quickly become a 20 or 50 piece engine that takes much longer to assemble, and is made of far more different materials and components that must be sourced, inventoried, and managed. And, for most manufacturers, QC'd. The more compexity, the more that can go wrong.

Adding competition to the industry does help keep prices down, or it may encourage better products for minimal price increases. FOV came on board with the lower price approach, but with a minimalist approach on detail. Their models look great--just don't try opening the hatches or looking under the hood, which is fine for the price range they are in. 21st started listening to our requests for more detail. As a result, the cost has progressively gone up (I won't count the WM pricing on many products, which was kept artificially low by contract), and will continue to do so, both to cover material and labor costs.

However, no company will produce a product that they have to sell at a loss, at least not if they expect to stay in business--and I don't see how a company can produce a 1/18 model with super high levels of detail for $50 or even $100 and turn enough of a profit to produce more. In the case of the F-100 model you showed: was it pre-built and pre-painted? Or was it a kit? If it was a kit, what was the cost of the paint and glue? And how many hours did it take to assemble and paint it? if you built it, what is your time worth? Even if it was hand-built in China, the labor isn't free--although it is a fraction of the cost it is here, although that too is increasing rapidly.

Higher prices won't kill our hobby. It might reduce the number of buyers if everyone jacks up prices, and maybe shift the demographics--Ferrari has been around for over 50 years, and they never worried about competing with Ford (except a little GT40 spat in the 60's) or Yugo. Can everyone afford one? No. But some people can--and as long as people can, they will build cars. Personally, i would love to see someone come into the industry producing nicely detailed models intended for collectors in a suitable price range, maybe $250-$400. Let the existing companies choose where they want to fall into the matrix. And keep in mind, we WILL see progressive price increases, simply due to inflation.

Like I said above: higher prices won't kill our hobby. But a lack of innovation will. While I herald bbi's courage for releasing a better Me-109, I won't buy one. There are too many other worthwhile subjects out there that no one has done yet. I haven't picked up anything 1/18 since around Christmas--and even then it was just a couple figures. Simply put, why should I? How many variations on a Sherman or Tiger or Mustang do I need? I am looking forward to the Dauntless, the Stryker, the Spad, and maybe someday (please?!?!?) an A-10. But not another Mustang, Corsair, Abrams, or Sherman. Or yet another repaint of an Me-109G.

Very well said and with great insight. I couldn't agree more with everything you said FieroDude. If we want more detail and quality, we need to stop lamenting over price increases and accept the fact that it will cost the manufacturer's more to produce a model to higher standards. Looking at the price of model kits in hobby stores, kits you have to assemble and detail yourself, I find it funny that people complain so much about the price of 1/18 scale models that are already pre-assembled for you. You couldn't even touch a 1/32 scale model kit for the price we pay for the majority of the 1/18 scale models we have available. And they require little to no skill to complete!!

The problem is we've been paying way under what we should have been paying for years. An F-4, A-10, F-15, selling for a price between $200-$500 sounds very reasonable to me at this point. Give me landing gear options, full ordinance options, opening cockpit, some moving control surfaces, and maybe a few openig access panels and I'm happy. Of course that's me...

Oh, I too wish someone would bring on a 1/18 A-10...it can be done!!! I'm about to call hph....

AlloySkull · Post by **AlloySkull** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:15 am

I want that damn F-100...