a Rant of sorts.

CW4USARMY · Post by **CW4USARMY** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:13 pm

digger wrote:
You missed the point. The difference is that Admiral tells us why we dont have them yet
I thought Jason said they were done talking about the Phantom for obvious reasons. Where did you hear why we don't have the Phanotm??

Dude, read the posts in the forum. Jason told us why. Now what was the reason for 21st?

CW4USARMY · Post by **CW4USARMY** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:14 pm

GooglyDoogly wrote:
aferguson wrote:i believe AT would have had the F4 out by Christmas if not for the happenings at Toy Fair in Feb. I think it would have been given a very high priority.

Still...if 21c backs away from it, as may be happening, AT is still good to go on the Phanotom.
Well....if AT suddenly produced their F-4, I'll bet my first born that 21st will suddenly come out with theirs. And at $89.99 WOOHOO!

And of course 21st will claim that they have always planned on releasing the F-4...that thing with AT...that's just a coincidence!

And the reason why they haven't released, or even talk about the F-4, B-25, MiG-21...is because they would like to concentrate on things that us collectors have been yearning for all these years.

That's right...the quad trailer.

Yep...can't live without that. Push back the Kingtiger and the 88mm....because we all know how the quad trailer will be the BIG SELLER this holiday season.

ROTFL!!

digger · Post by **digger** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 3:44 pm

Dude, read the posts in the forum. Jason told us why.

They delayed theirs because 21C announced theirs? IMO they should have known 21C was not going to get one done by Xmas and they should have done their own..

olifant · Post by **olifant** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:34 pm

I agree that 21C posted notice of the Phantom, Mig-21 and B-25 prematurely. This seems to be their MO if we look back at their announcement of the Avenger which took two years to get to market. TKO has stated that it is company policy to not communicate to us on this board so the only vehicle we have for information is their website and TKOs announcements.

I would prefer better information, but I have come to grips with this: it is what it is. At the very least we do know what is in the pipeline although we know we are in for a long wait.

My assumption is that 21C is staffed by people who are passionate about this hobby or they would have chosen to offer other, PC "safer" toys. Even if they don't love what they produce, it is easy to become passionate about your work.

For four years running I have a pet project I would love to see put into action. It is a simple, elegant way of making our production easier while saving six figures each year. Unfortunately it is very capitol intensive and would require us to shut down our plant for two weeks. The first two years we could not take the down time and the last two there is not enough business to justify the purchase; payback period moved out past five years for us.

Where am I going with this? 21C announces the B-25 and someone there is passionate about it. This is supposition but I imagine they may announce it to see what the feedback is both from their vendors but also forums like these. Meanwhile they are working furiously crunching numbers, working out material requirements and overcoming engineering issues. Then they lose their biggest customer, WM, so what are they to do? Announce their cancellation? Or do they continue to sharpen their pencils and hope they can make this happen. My guess is they are trying to make this work, just like all of their other announcements.

Don't get me wrong. I too wish for more and better communication from 21C. I too wonder why they would bother with the quad .50 trailer, knowing that it was probably a quick way for them to get another product out and make some cash. I too think it was crappy to put the screws to Admiral with the Phantom. And please guys, follow your conscience and vote with your money if you feel the need. But don't indict 21C just because they don't meet your every desire. My guess is that their passion for what they do matches our own.

Direct question for all who want to bash 21C: Will you forgo the 1/18th KT and 88MM? If so, rant on. If not, is hypocracy in play?

Birddog · Post by **Birddog** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:43 pm

I don't blame AT for holding off on the F-4. It's a market predominantly everyone here has agreed isn't big enough for two productions of larger aircraft. Look at the F-16 and F-18, we don't see AT or 21st jumping to do them and I doubt we will.

For what it's worth, I do think someone's bluff may have been called though...

vmf214 · Post by **vmf214** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:05 pm

olifant wrote:I agree that 21C posted notice of the Phantom, Mig-21 and B-25 prematurely. This seems to be their MO if we look back at their announcement of the Avenger which took two years to get to market. TKO has stated that it is company policy to not communicate to us on this board so the only vehicle we have for information is their website and TKOs announcements.

I would prefer better information, but I have come to grips with this: it is what it is. At the very least we do know what is in the pipeline although we know we are in for a long wait.

My assumption is that 21C is staffed by people who are passionate about this hobby or they would have chosen to offer other, PC "safer" toys. Even if they don't love what they produce, it is easy to become passionate about your work.

For four years running I have a pet project I would love to see put into action. It is a simple, elegant way of making our production easier while saving six figures each year. Unfortunately it is very capitol intensive and would require us to shut down our plant for two weeks. The first two years we could not take the down time and the last two there is not enough business to justify the purchase; payback period moved out past five years for us.

Where am I going with this? 21C announces the B-25 and someone there is passionate about it. This is supposition but I imagine they may announce it to see what the feedback is both from their vendors but also forums like these. Meanwhile they are working furiously crunching numbers, working out material requirements and overcoming engineering issues. Then they lose their biggest customer, WM, so what are they to do? Announce their cancellation? Or do they continue to sharpen their pencils and hope they can make this happen. My guess is they are trying to make this work, just like all of their other announcements.

Don't get me wrong. I too wish for more and better communication from 21C. I too wonder why they would bother with the quad .50 trailer, knowing that it was probably a quick way for them to get another product out and make some cash. I too think it was crappy to put the screws to Admiral with the Phantom. And please guys, follow your conscience and vote with your money if you feel the need. But don't indict 21C just because they don't meet your every desire. My guess is that their passion for what they do matches our own.

Direct question for all who want to bash 21C: Will you forgo the 1/18th KT and 88MM? If so, rant on. If not, is hypocracy in play?

Perfectly put! I guarantee the folks who are "quitting" with 21c will have a KT and 88 on their shelves. Were we not kept semi-up to date with the many issues with the Avenger? As I've said before, I'm sure the B-25 is plagued with several issues as well. I for one am not going to quit buying from any of the manufacturers just because they didn't meet a deadline, please, that's just silly. Has anyone read something from WM stating they are dropping 21c? Are they likely going to drop big items like 1/18, looking at the shelves would tell us obviously but at least in my AO there are no shortage of 32x aircraft, playsets, and 1/18 figs. Can the manufacturers survive without WM? I say hell yeah, online retailers do quite a bit of business so imo if WM were to dump the entire line it'd only be a bump in the road nothing more. I for one don't care about the competition issues between the companies, just put out the product, that's all that matters to me. I'm not going to stand on a soap box and chastise one or the other, swear to never buy their products again, simply because I didn't agree with announcing something just to "allegedly" screw up someone elses plans or because by gosh it didn't come by 12/07 so screw it I won't buy it! Bologny!! Before I'm taken out of context yet again, let me make it perfectly clear that I'm not accusing anyone of being a "basher" or whatever so that road need not be traveled again.

I for one won't get excited because something isn't on time or because of competion issues. I'm glad for the hobby, thankful for whatever is put out and will continue to buy the items regardless if it's AT, BBi, or 21c.

CW4USARMY · Post by **CW4USARMY** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:13 pm

Oli and VMF,

I knew you guys couldnt resist the "soap box" "Bash" - ing thing again. Is it just my posts that tick you off, or anybody who disagrees?

Nobody here has said they will stop buying 21st (you really need to read all the words). What this collector said is that I will buy only one of each product, but will no longer buy multiples of each paint schemes like I have in the past. And, the point to most of our postings is the lack of courtesy with any info of delays and such, it is not that a company must meet a deadline or else. Admiral seems to be able to pop in and give us an update or two and it doesnt appear to have cost them a bundle in lost revenues or anything.

No hidden agenda, just read the actual words posted. Sorry to derail your attempt to once again try and paint my posts in a negative light. You must have had a bad experience with WOs in your past

scbvideoboy · Post by **scbvideoboy** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:30 pm

As long as the etailers will be able to get stuff. The local TRU has yet to stock the quad trailer or camo pak 40.

Support the little guys as well like FOV and Pegasus to get a foothold in the door, now it the time as collectors are fed up with the games.

I'm sure there is some major changes going on in China in regards to toy production and causing delays. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if there are some lawsuits between AT and 21C going on right now.

DH

Jay · Post by **Jay** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:35 pm

Excuse me for being a bit naive on the whole WM thing. But even if WM did discontinue the 1/18 aircraft line, surely there would be enough etailers and actual "real" (i.e model or hobby stores) to sell the product. LARGE boxed radio control planes are still purchased (and when did that hobby start?!) so I think the demand is still there for our 1/18 planes. Again excuse the naivety but perhaps even though WM has huge buying power, it may not be the best home for 1/18 planes. Do WM sell boxed chevy big block engines next to the oil filters, replacement wiper blades and car fresheners? Or do they sell Winnebago RV's next to the camping equipment and fishing rods?. I just think there are alternatives than "just" WM.

My foreign exchange 2cents

digger · Post by **digger** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:51 am

Sad but true that WM is that powerful. Huge orders keep these things affordable and (relatively) available. In the last 6 months with WM seemingly out of the AC mix it has been slow - not just on new stuff but also repaints.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 6:02 am

I think we need to phone and write the folks at WM Who are in charge of boy toys, and tell them we want or 1/18 XD

vmf214 · Post by **vmf214** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 6:54 am

CW4USARMY wrote:Oli and VMF,

I knew you guys couldnt resist the "soap box" "Bash" - ing thing again. Is it just my posts that tick you off, or anybody who disagrees?
Nobody here has said they will stop buying 21st (you really need to read all the words). What this collector said is that I will buy only one of each product, but will no longer buy multiples of each paint schemes like I have in the past. And, the point to most of our postings is the lack of courtesy with any info of delays and such, it is not that a company must meet a deadline or else. Admiral seems to be able to pop in and give us an update or two and it doesnt appear to have cost them a bundle in lost revenues or anything.

No hidden agenda, just read the actual words posted. Sorry to derail your attempt to once again try and paint my posts in a negative light. You must have had a bad experience with WOs in your past

Here we go again. Think you've got it a little backwards there dude and why do you think everything said is somehow related to you? You obviously enjoy cackling back and forth. Reading all the words is a good idea, especially the way I was taken out of context the last time and I won't go down this road again. Instigating negativity is what you have done friend so you haven't derailed anything. The fact I even mentioned I wasn't accusing anyone of being a basher is testament about "reading" all the words.

Never had a problem with the W grades, they do what they're told like everyone else...

"Having a problem with WO's" is a pretty arrogant remark, don't you think? Trying to pick fights online of all things, over toys, is pretty unbecoming wouldn't you say?

MG-42 · Post by **MG-42** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:28 am

* The WAL* MART 's in my AO don't seem to have a real shortage of 21st.C 1:18 AC . They still have Sabres , P-51's , and Canadian 104's and a "Pearl Harbor" P-40 Tomahawk # 360 "Lt. Taylor's" plane.

* Spotty though , but still , no real shortage.

Mitch v MG :p51:

Post by **aferguson** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:50 am

there will be no Christmas Eve pissing contests guys. Drop it.

vmf214 · Post by **vmf214** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:03 am

aferguson wrote:there will be no Christmas Eve pissing contests guys. Drop it.

Consider it dropped.

Coreyeagle48 · Post by **Coreyeagle48** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:47 pm

Greetings:

There is no disputing the fact that 21st Century Toys makes military toys that are generally of good quality and cover some of the most famous military pieces in history. The toys are unique because of their scale and detail. They have made some great business decisions that has helped them expose their product to the military toy collector world. The Pearl Harbor P-40's, the Walmart deal, the Avenger have all created headlines on this forum and throughout the toy world. Unfortunately, they have also made some decisions that have cost them negatively. If you are truly a loyal supporter of their toys and the company you have to accept the fact that this company, as well as any company in the world today, has made some bad business decisions. It's business, not everything goes well all the time.

For example, I believe 21st greatly angered and frustrated Walmart with the Avenger. There is really no way a plane that big and that easy to break should have gone into Walmart stores knowing the track record they have had with the other aircraft and 21st items. That was a disaster waiting to happen. Knowing how little some Walmart employees care, how they distrbute product and that Walmart has issues with stocking something that big for a sale run should have told 21st not to give it to them. The Avenger would have been better off going to hobby shops and web retailers. Because of the uniqueness of the item, people would have bought it. I am more than willing to bet people at 21st now realize sending that airplane to Walmart was a huge mistake not to be repeated. If 21st does release another large aircraft, I would expect it to go to the small retailers only, not to Walmart.

I also believe quality control has continued to hurt 21st. There is no excuse for whole runs of aircraft being messed up. Walmart is easygoing on customer returns, but even they have to wonder when a large number of planes come back broken or are damaged. Walmart doesn't want to carry something that has a tendency to break, the item will get returned and then they do not make any money from the customers. 21st has been told repeatedly by its customers and its retailers that its quality control has issues. Before another aircraft gets released or another project is started, fix it! This is something that should have been fixed long ago by this company. This isn't a 21st bash, there is just no excuse for a company to have 50 perfect planes and 50 that look like kids painted them. They need consistency.

Finally, 21st needs to stop making announcements for things they do not possess or have a prototype for. This is bad business. The main reason, if you say you are going to make it, and tell your fans you are going to make it, then you better make it or you will have extremely disappointed and angry customers. The Avenger is a good example, they announced this way in advance and two years later it was available. And it was rushed to the store, as evident by the lack of screw plugs. I'm glad they made it, but I often wondered if somewhere along the line someone at the company had second thoughts, or the whole company did itself. Before making grand announcements on projects, get a grasp of what you can make, what will be accepted by the consumer and if it is possible to make it. That is good busines

21st Century Toys is a great company with passionate fans and employees, but they are not perfect. I would like to see them address some of their long standing issues with their products before committing to anything new. Even if they have to make repaints to get their quality control at their factories right, so be it. I'd rather see new and better products rather than new products with the same tired issues this company has failed to correct since they have been in business.

CW4USARMY · Post by **CW4USARMY** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:03 pm

aferguson wrote:there will be no Christmas Eve pissing contests guys. Drop it.

Obviously doesn't know W-grades

. Consider it dropped

ostketten · Post by **ostketten** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:14 pm

Walmart doesn't want to carry something that has a tendency to break, the item will get returned and then they do not make any money from the customers.

I agree, but I think this is where a distinction between a "toy" and "collector model" needs to be made. Walmart simply doesn't have the time to argue with their customers returning stuff over whether little Johnny abused his toy tank, versus whether it was too fragile for Johnny to "play" with in the first place...they simply refund the money and take the loss, it's kind of a no-win situation for WM, but lets face it, these are "big boy" toys and are not really intended for younger children to "play" with, I mean look at the box...it says.. "Ages 5+", I mean please...does anyone really expect something like this to survive for very long in the hands of 6 or 7 year old.

um, no...not really

olifant · Post by **olifant** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:49 pm

Coreyeagle48 wrote:Greetings:

There is no disputing the fact that 21st Century Toys makes military toys that are generally of good quality and cover some of the most famous military pieces in history. The toys are unique because of their scale and detail. They have made some great business decisions that has helped them expose their product to the military toy collector world. The Pearl Harbor P-40's, the Walmart deal, the Avenger have all created headlines on this forum and throughout the toy world. Unfortunately, they have also made some decisions that have cost them negatively. If you are truly a loyal supporter of their toys and the company you have to accept the fact that this company, as well as any company in the world today, has made some bad business decisions. It's business, not everything goes well all the time.

For example, I believe 21st greatly angered and frustrated Walmart with the Avenger. There is really no way a plane that big and that easy to break should have gone into Walmart stores knowing the track record they have had with the other aircraft and 21st items. That was a disaster waiting to happen. Knowing how little some Walmart employees care, how they distrbute product and that Walmart has issues with stocking something that big for a sale run should have told 21st not to give it to them. The Avenger would have been better off going to hobby shops and web retailers. Because of the uniqueness of the item, people would have bought it. I am more than willing to bet people at 21st now realize sending that airplane to Walmart was a huge mistake not to be repeated. If 21st does release another large aircraft, I would expect it to go to the small retailers only, not to Walmart.

I also believe quality control has continued to hurt 21st. There is no excuse for whole runs of aircraft being messed up. Walmart is easygoing on customer returns, but even they have to wonder when a large number of planes come back broken or are damaged. Walmart doesn't want to carry something that has a tendency to break, the item will get returned and then they do not make any money from the customers. 21st has been told repeatedly by its customers and its retailers that its quality control has issues. Before another aircraft gets released or another project is started, fix it! This is something that should have been fixed long ago by this company. This isn't a 21st bash, there is just no excuse for a company to have 50 perfect planes and 50 that look like kids painted them. They need consistency.

Finally, 21st needs to stop making announcements for things they do not possess or have a prototype for. This is bad business. The main reason, if you say you are going to make it, and tell your fans you are going to make it, then you better make it or you will have extremely disappointed and angry customers. The Avenger is a good example, they announced this way in advance and two years later it was available. And it was rushed to the store, as evident by the lack of screw plugs. I'm glad they made it, but I often wondered if somewhere along the line someone at the company had second thoughts, or the whole company did itself. Before making grand announcements on projects, get a grasp of what you can make, what will be accepted by the consumer and if it is possible to make it. That is good busines

21st Century Toys is a great company with passionate fans and employees, but they are not perfect. I would like to see them address some of their long standing issues with their products before committing to anything new. Even if they have to make repaints to get their quality control at their factories right, so be it. I'd rather see new and better products rather than new products with the same tired issues this company has failed to correct since they have been in business.

CE, that was a well worded, thought out, written, fair and on the mark constructive criticism. I agree with you 100% an my hope is 21C has your foresight.

Merry Christmas fellas, especially you CW4; I mean it when I say that although your posts sometime worry and frustrate me you often have great feedback on the hobby and I am glad to share this forum with you, despite the fact we are sometimes diametrically opposed on viewpoints.

dfoos · Post by **dfoos** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:05 pm

There is a term for this, It's called: Sh*t or get off the pot. I hate hearing about something that may or may not happen and then getting all excited about it, only to be deflated by mega delays or cancellation. It's bad enough trying to find the products that are actually out there (with WM distrabution probs, etc...) then to get all hyped for a product we'll never see. At least keep it to yourself until you know for sure its coming.

STUKA · Post by **STUKA** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:01 am

So far - well said - Nothing really bugs me - but...
we have DAK - but no allies to stand up to them - suddenly we have NAM figures? But no Viet-cong...

well so far I have only paid full price for one plane - the corsair at TRU - every other plane over half off at WM - I have said it before - XD planes sit forever at WM because we expect them to go on clearance!! Same thing is now happening with BBI at Target - They sat for months - I now have them because they were clearanced.

21st century is made up of employees and admin who love Models, toys and everything that has to do with military history - I hope there are a few who have more of a business mind - but I give them credit - they probably did what they had to do - be at the mercy of WM - So far they are doing well -
Im looking at this rant and feeling a bit pulled in both directions - sure we want these toys/XD now - but so far we have been given so much...
NAM - we begged for NAM figures.
quad trailer - we begged for smaller WWII accesories.
we have to remember to get a PAK 40 - the plan is set in place probably a year or two before we see final production.
We begged for a bit of insider information - we got it.
When we get the information we complain because the information is a year before the scheduled release.
Guys - XD is strong - in 2006-2007 we have been given more items then 2004-2005. We now have FOV, Admiral and Pegasus. I'm confident 21st century knew about those companies way before we saw their product on the market..

Enjoy what we have - realize these companies can go silent - when they read our coments - they cant win for losing - and good lord - I dont have any more room for planes or Tanks -

anyway - Happy holidays! Merry Christmas!! and go buy XD! Make TRU and WM restock!!

boyx30 · Post by **boyx30** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 1:35 am

WOW!

I don't know if I should apologise for starting this thread or aplaude you all for speaking your minds. It is certainly apparent that we all are frustrated by the current state of our hobby or in some cases passion. You guys are all tops and someone will come along into our lives and make us forget about her....ummm I mean 21st century or BBI or Admiral...

Actually I meant what I said. I hate being strung along in particular when we collectively are all truely sincere about this hobby...and many for very heart felt reasons, either being a veteran or the child of a veteran or just someone who is really a true historian..whatever the case we all deserve better than the prom date promise of a "BIG" PAYOFF only to be sorely dissappointed again and again. Yes I do enjoy and appreciate the quality of products that do arrive....when they arrive...or if they arrive....I hope the makers are taking note...we might not be the ultimate buying power or authority but we are a pulse and collectively we can be a good measuring stick by which they can determine what is a good bet to produce....

again best wishes to all Happy Holidays...stay safe and sound

Scott

dfoos · Post by **dfoos** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 3:57 am

Well said.

I am also grateful for what we have got so far, but it is sooooo frustrating to see these cool prototypes and go on our weekly/daily/monthly trips to our favorite haunts to find only the same old stuff collecting dust. I personally think WM is run by a bunch of squirrels or something. They buy a thousand red nose Me 109's that sit forever, and one of each play sets which are gone almost immediately, and when It comes time to re order, they order more Me 109's!!! Sheer idiocy. All 5 of the WM's in my AO are like this. I love the prices WM sells this stuff for, and TRU was a shock (25% increase) but at least I still have hopes that I can find something new. Also, as a wargamer, I buy multiples of lots of things, especially in 1/32 and 1/144. But I just hate thinking about cool stuff like the PBR, which I have seen the proto for but I know It will probably never be made. Or, as a wargamer, I buy a ton of Eastern front germans and equipment but I have no idea if they will ever do Soviet stuff. Firefly's but no Brits.
One more thing that I wish they would do would be to re-release some of the more sought after older models, like the XD buildings and Kubelwagen. How much cheaper to re-release something we have all screamed for than to make a whole new mold for something new, then never to make it because it would be too expensive to produce.... AAAARRRRGGGHHH My brain is about to goooo iiiinnntoooo mmmmmeeeellllttttdddooowwwnnnnnnnnnnn.

digger · Post by **digger** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 7:41 am

Im looking at this rant and feeling a bit pulled in both directions - sure we want these toys/XD now - but so far we have been given so much...
NAM - we begged for NAM figures.
quad trailer - we begged for smaller WWII accesories.
we have to remember to get a PAK 40 - the plan is set in place probably a year or two before we see final production.
We begged for a bit of insider information - we got it.
When we get the information we complain because the information is a year before the scheduled release.
Guys - XD is strong - in 2006-2007 we have been given more items then 2004-2005.

All true. Good voice of reason.

Merry Xmas All!

Small Scale Military Headquarters

a Rant of sorts.

Re: ?

WM is life

* On a Rant ! *