Thought I had struck gold on the King Tiger!

Jesse James · Post by **Jesse James** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:15 pm

I'm thinking the way things are now quality-wise, the sales wouldn't be that great if it goes to this "high-end price" specialty market... 21st would REALLY need to up the anty by some margin to really demand that kind of increase I'm afraid.

Looks nice to me, but when you're narrowing your market down to a much slimmer group, you're also now narrowing it down to a much more discerning group. I'm not in that category... I can live with a flaw here and there like hatch handles, but at $100 I want a vehicle with a full interior... This won't have that? Forget it then... Just another reason not to buy IMO.

The 88, I agree with Digger's logic on it (why release the popular scheme now?), but I am among those who wouldn't have wanted one in tan unless it was inexpensive, so I'm passing.

My opinion(s) come from a strictly consumer POV, though I understand the business side of it. Fact is though, 21st doesn't cut me my checks and I've supported them loyally for their duration... That to me means I'm happy to dump them with their "new direction" they want to take 1:18. If better looking models and RC vehicles exist (albeit at a higher price), then why not go all the way and get the true high quality stuff instead of settling for the half-way there 21st items? Like I said before, the price was part of the draw... Most of us could get past the problems, and those that couldn't were willing to fix them due to the price. With the price hike... Why bother?

I've always had other hobbies to spend on, and now I'll just have less budget-fudging to do to justify this or that purchase. It's money saved to me, and the figures are seemingly not changing (and if they do, I'll drop those too), so that's positive ground made to me.

I think 21st's making a mistake here, but that's life... If they're gone, they did it to themselves IMO.

MG40K · Post by **MG40K** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:18 pm

normandy wrote:I ordered 2 King Tigers from Historic Aviation on Friday at 4pm, $34.95 each with shipping $79.00....... Well today I got a call from them..... ( I knew this was coming ) " there seems to be a small problem with your order, the price in the catalog is a misprint your new total is $215.85." The HELL it is.............no sale!
Oh and Historic Aviation said "the King Tiger will not be in stock until June.

Thats ridiculous.

killoff · Post by **killoff** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:32 pm

For an ok 1/18th scale 88mm flak gun...$100.00
For a "below average" 1/18 scale King Tiger tank...$100.00
For those of us who don't have any model making skills or the patience to do so...Priceless

Even during these times, I can afford at least one of each. I'm happy that they will even be produced. As for the accuracy, its there to the average joe. I read somewhere on here that the figures are more closer to 1/16th. scale than 1/18 anyways. If they made a 1/18th scale bomber would we find something wrong with it too? Seems to me it would be a little bit higher price than the ME-262 at $79.99, maybe alot more. Iknow that they're accuracy for planes is way better than armor, But you guys would buy one or more right ?

digger · Post by **digger** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:10 pm

(As someone noted above, why the heck was the M-17 trailer ever produced if 21c is really concerned about making a profit?)

What do you mean? Have you ever considered it was cheap to tool up and that's how they made a profit? It is now available with figure for about $20. Really not bad, especially since we use to clamor for more off-beat pieces, and pieces that could be easily modified to allow for variety. Remember?

killoff wrote:For an ok 1/18th scale 88mm flak gun...$100.00..

OK? OK? What about that gun did not look AWESOME? Let's get serious - that is one amazing piece of work. I understand some of the comments about the KT, but the flak is beyond reproach imo.

STUKA · Post by **STUKA** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:17 pm

I agree the Flak 88 is simply amazing. I will save up for one of them. And we did sort of stab 21st in the back on the m17 gun trailer. We did ask for unusual pieces and they delivered - they are really just showing up in bulk in TRU so I will be getting one soon.

tmanthegreat · Post by **tmanthegreat** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:33 pm

digger wrote:What do you mean? Have you ever considered it was cheap to tool up and that's how they made a profit? It is now available with figure for about $20. Really not bad, especially since we use to clamor for more off-beat pieces, and pieces that could be easily modified to allow for variety. Remember?

You are right on the price point for what you get - and it is a nice piece. Still, were even those members who clamor for off-beat armor pieces screaming for an M-17? I don't recall it, though I could have missed something...

It also says something for the general buying public. I would assume that the bulk of 21c's customers are the average joes and not us collectors. (They would have to be in order for 21c to have stayed afloat this long). The M-17 just doesn't seem like something that would sell in droves to the average public. I'll give an example: Thus far, while it took both my local TRUs a couple months to stock the M-17s after the first sighting, they have sold poorly, as have the cammo Pak-40s. The Pak-40 Hanomags and M-16 halftracks did much better comparatively, as did the 1:18 aircraft restocks. (My town, while not much of a newmaker back east, is as racially and economically diverse as cities several times its size. If 21c can't sell here, it won't sell elsewhere

) The M-17 still remains a questionable armor piece to me.

GooglyDoogly · Post by **GooglyDoogly** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:45 pm

Yes, I would like to know exactly who were clamoring for an M-17.

Back when I clamored for a Firefly, I was informed that I'm the *only* one to do so.

But suddenly, there was a great demand for a quad trailer?

Seriously?

Post by **aferguson** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:53 pm

the quad trailer was just a quick money making (theoretically) piece for them to make. They already had the quad, they just needed to make the trailer.

Mind you i cant imagine that a minor retool of the Sherman into a Firefly would have been any more trouble. Doesn't gotta be perfect. The short barrelled panzer IV wasn't but it was gobbled up.

olifant · Post by **olifant** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:50 pm

Guys, I hate to tell you this but injection mold equipment is extremely expensive, most of it being done in China now. Forgive me as I talk shop now.

This link shows an extremely simple single cavity mold being sold used for $125K for the base, $85K for the lid. I am sure you could negotiate down from this price but it is not unreasonable. Please note how primitive this tool is; a KT or 88MM mold would require much greater detail and design/build time. Much of the cost of tool building is spent on the engineering and CAD time. Metal isn't that expensive and any self respecting tool shop with an EDM machine and three axis mills could pull off the build. We pay upwards of $50K for tool design on simple extrusion profiles and do the builds ourselves. When we tune tools and need to buy extra capacity we are paying $2K/day when we bring in hired hands. Tool designers and tuners are extremely skilled and very much in demand.

http://www.kdcapital.com/Products/Produ ... tID/472083

Shown in this link is a series of injection molding equipment from CM, a leading player in the plastics equipment market. The 1100 ton machine would work for a single cavity mold; ie. one die for a tiger turret, one for the tiger body, on for the bottom, etc. The 4000 ton machine would work for a mulit-cavity mold that would contain ALL parts for a Tiger tank. Please note the scale of these machines with the inclusion of the operator in the photos. The largest injection mold machines are 100'X30'; these would be used for shooting mulit cavity molds of large items like plastic garbage cans.

http://plastics.milacron.com/INJECTION/ ... 0SPECS.htm

Single cavity molds are easier to build and balance flow, but take more/smaller machine time. These molds would probably weigh 800lbs and be 24"X24"X48" to facilitate cooling. A mulit-cavity mold would weigh in at maybe a ton and be 48"X48"X48". New these machines would cost anywhere from $500K-$1.5M. Few Chinese manufacturers of equipment exist and those that do are rip offs of American or European designs and perform terribly in regards to uptime and reliability.

Injection molding is incredibly competative and margins are EXTREMELY thin, especially during economic downturns when everyone has equipment time available.

I too am balking at the price tag but please remember this is a terribly capital intensive business 21C is in. Simple molds+long production runs=cheap product. Unfortunately 21C has detailed molds+short runs=$100 KTs.

tmanthegreat · Post by **tmanthegreat** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:00 pm

Given the level of this discussion (and its one of the best we've had going around here in a while) I thought some size-comparison pictures were in order:

What you are seeing are 1:32 FOV vehicles and we can translate the sizes into 1:18 with a little imagination

As you can see with the Abrams and Tiger I, both are not seriously larger than the King Tiger. Further, the 1:18 Abrams tanks have no interior, while the Tiger I does. Yet these tanks cost anywhere between $25 and $70 less than the proposed price for the 21c King Tiger. I still can't shape the feeling that the price hike is somewhat fishy. Even though the mass retailer seems to be absent from these upcoming 21c releases, perhaps resulting in the higher price, it still seems a bit excessive considering other market trends.

However, to bring in a counter point, its probably not so bad as Dragon makes 1:35 scale tanks that sell for nearly $80...

chunks · Post by **chunks** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:08 pm

FOV has an 1/18 M-60!!!! Where, how!!!
That was the last tank I served on and have been hoping for!!!

Great comparison!!!

chunks · Post by **chunks** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:10 pm

Oh, I see your comparing 1/32. Sigh, oh well. Still a great post.

tmanthegreat · Post by **tmanthegreat** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:13 pm

Edited my post before you responded. FOV does not have a 1:18 M-60, merely I forgot to put my 1:32 version in the above pictures with the other 1:32 tanks

21c makes a 1:18 version of the M-48 which sells for $50.

STUKA · Post by **STUKA** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:49 pm

Did anyone else notice the 21st website earlier tonight. For about two days now I have not been able to get on - and I usually check once or twice a day. I was able to get on tonight but my computer froze on the site - when I went back to it the server connection was gone.

was the news showing 3-31-08 for two different Kingtiger repaints - one looked like the one we already saw and the other was a camo - but the site froze when I was zooming in on it. Someone tell me I didnt have too much coffee and they saw the three pictures too!!

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:58 pm

Cool pics of the 1/32 armor.

STUKA · Post by **STUKA** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:02 pm

no I didnt see that. There was only one new entry after the Stuka one I think - I still can't get on the site!!!

chunks · Post by **chunks** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:13 pm

Mabbe the site hasn't been renewed, not new and seems to happen every year.

Jesse James · Post by **Jesse James** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:05 am

Right in line with bad business decisions, poor planning, and a complete lack of communication...

Sounds about right then that the bill just wasn't paid.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:18 am

Jesse James wrote:Right in line with bad business decisions, poor planning, and a complete lack of communication...

Sounds about right then that the bill just wasn't paid.

Ouch!!!!!
Come on guys lets give 21st a break.

King O' Fools · Post by **King O' Fools** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:16 am

Jesse James wrote:Right in line with bad business decisions, poor planning, and a complete lack of communication...

Sounds about right then that the bill just wasn't paid.

Are you sure they're not under a DoS attack by some pissed off customer/etailer?

Maybe the Dalai Lama was counting on the 88 and KT to boost the morale of his monks and the Free Tibet Liberation Front decided to take the matter into their own hands...

tmanthegreat · Post by **tmanthegreat** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:48 am

VMF115 wrote:Come on guys lets give 21st a break.

We've been giving them a break all along - and they thank us by delivering runs of products with glaring QC issues, over-priced items, and weak customer service

Gosh, I'm sounding like King o Fools, aren't I?

21c really isn't all that bad at times

parrish333 · Post by **parrish333** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:13 pm

This is all just what we call capitalism and supply and demand. If a super-detailed 1:18 King Tiger can be sold for $50 instead of $100 and it will sell like hotcakes in every Target, TRU, WM, and online retailer, somebody will eventually do it. Any of us are welcome to start our own toy company and try just like the founders of 21C and AT did.

If various factors (already all mentioned) are forcing us to have to pay $100 for an ok 1:18 21C KT or $400 for a better 1:16 FOV KT, then that's life until someone can prove otherwise.

A lot of us would have bought multiple KTs and 88s for $50 ea. So just buy 1 of ea. for $100 and keep the company alive. As TKO pointed out, the Pegasas V-1 for $30 is small with no moving parts. An 88 or even a KT for $100 is certainly in line with that. We were just spoiled when demand meant they could be mass-produced for WM.

AT does seem to be the exception as their prices for online-only sales and smaller production runs were competitive with 21C who had larger production runs for their big retail contract. Bt we have yet to see what AT's SBD and Skyraider will come in at - they might have to go much higher too. If not, and they've found the magic method to keeping high-quality pre-assembled pre-painted limited-run 1:18 models at a reasonable price, then rest assured they'll feed 21C a dose of their own medicine and will shortly announce the release of a $50 KT that blows apart 21C's.

GooglyDoogly · Post by **GooglyDoogly** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:18 pm

tmanthegreat wrote:
VMF115 wrote:Come on guys lets give 21st a break.
We've been giving them a break all along - and they thank us by delivering runs of products with glaring QC issues, over-priced items, and weak customer service

Gosh, I'm sounding like King o Fools, aren't I?

21c really isn't all that bad at times

LOL!!!!

Small Scale Military Headquarters

Thought I had struck gold on the King Tiger!

?

Re: ?

Time will tell